BRITAIN woke up this morning to the news that the Lord’s Prayer has been banned from cinemas.
The Church of England has produced a sixty second commercial. The only words are the words of the Lord’s Prayer, said by children, the bereaved, people at work and so on. It’s a beautiful film, Certificate U. The ad is to promote a new website, Just Pray.uk. The plan was (and is) to show the film before Christmas at screenings of the new Star Wars film to help everyone think about prayer and to pray. What could be more simple?
The distributors have declared the Lord’s Prayer unsuitable for screening. They believe it carries the risk of upsetting or offending audiences.
This is the banned ad.
Bryan Patterson's Faithworks 
The Bishop of Sheffield Steven Croft had this response:
Cue indignation from the press, fury from the Archbishop (according to the Mail anyway) debates about free speech, a possible challenge in the courts and a storm on social media.
But wait just a moment. Suppose the cinema chains got this one right?
I disagree with their decision and I disagree with the reasons they have given. I hope it’s reversed. I don’t believe the film will offend or upset audiences, in the way they mean, and I don’t believe it creates a new precedent.
But from the point of view of global corporations and consumer culture, from the perspective of the gods and spirits of the age, there are very good reasons indeed to ban the Lord’s Prayer from cinemas and from culture and from public life.
This is a prayer said by billions of people every day in every language on the planet. In every single moment in time, someone is praying these words. They are the first words of prayer we learn as children and the last words we say at the moment of death.
The Lord’s Prayer is powerful for a reason. These words shape lives and families and communities and whole societies.
There are real reasons why the Lord’s Prayer has been banned by the demigods of consumer culture, in the boardrooms of the cinema chains. Here are seven, one for every line.
First, this prayer gives to those who pray it an identity and a place in the world and a countercultural community. “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name”. It opposes the myth that we are random specks of matter floating through space and time. It opposes the myth that our lives do not matter. It opposes the myth of fragmented humanity.
We are created and loved and called into friendship with God who is our father and into community with our fellow human beings who are therefore our sisters and brothers. Only someone who has found this new identity can stand against the advertising culture which night and day seduces us to define who we are by what we spend.
Second this prayer gives us the courage to live in an imperfect world. “Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
The world is not as it was meant to be. It is distorted from its true purpose. But God is at work to redeem and transform this world, to establish his kingdom. The Lord’s Prayer invites us not to retreat from the world in fear and pain, to anaesthetise or indulge ourselves. The Lord’s Prayer invites us to join the struggle to see justice and peace prevail.
Third, and most powerfully, the Lord’s Prayer teaches us to live with just enough. This is the most dangerous reason why it cannot be shown with the adverts at the cinema. It teaches us not to want more. It teaches contentment, the most subversive virtue of them all.
“Give us this day our daily bread”. This is not a prayer for more. This is a prayer only for what we need. Every other advert in the cinema is there to encourage us to spend money in pursuit of happiness. This one restrains our greed.
Fourth, the Lord’s Prayer teaches me to live with my imperfections and the imperfections of others. There is a way to deal with the rubbish in our lives. “Forgive us our sins”.
Consumer culture holds before us the image of perfection. We cannot be happy until we look like this person, live like that one. Each image is a lie.
The Lord’s Prayer acknowledges human imperfection and sin, daily. The Lord’s Prayer offers a pathway to forgiveness, daily. The way of forgiveness cannot be bought. It is a gift. Grace. Grace subverts the whole culture of advertising.
Fifth the Lord’s Prayer offers a way of reconciliation. “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”. We are not meant to feud or live in hostility or rivalry. We are meant to forgive and be forgiven, to be reconciled to each other. That reconciliation happens without expensive presents, without going into debt, without credit. People are not made happy by more things, another consumer lie. The greatest happiness comes from relationships. The key to great relationships is reconciliation and forgiveness.
Sixth, the Lord’s Prayer builds resilience in the human spirit. When you say this prayer each day you are prepared for the bad days. “Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.”
When we say this prayer we remind ourselves that we are not living in a Disney fairy tale, a saccharine creation of film makers where every story has a happy ending.
We are living in a real world of cancer and violence and difficulty, where we are tested, where bad things happen for no clear reason. We live in that world confident in God’s love and goodness and help even in the midst of the most challenging moments of our lives. Faith is for the deep valleys as much as the green pastures. We may not have the answers but we know that God dwells with us and in us.
And seventh the Lord’s Prayer tells us how the story ends, how this life is to be lived and lived well. “For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, now and for ever. Amen”.
The prayer returns as it begins to the praise and glory of the living God. Our hearts return to their origin and source, the one who created us. Life is to be lived to God’s praise and glory, not to satisfy our own small desires. We are beings with a higher calling and a greater purpose.
There are only 63 words in the Lord’s Prayer. It takes less than a minute to say them.
Yet these words shape our identity, give purpose to our lives, check our greed, remind us of our imperfections, offer a way of reconciliation, build resilience in our spirits and call us to live to the glory of our creator.
No wonder they have been banned in the boardrooms of consumer culture.
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It was interesting to read about the prayer and what it means to you, and your perspective of it comparing it to consumerism. Thank you.
I’m not Christian but have always been vaguely irritated by how Christmas is so commercialised. It’s disrespectful. Many years ago, I was in a taxi going past the Salvation Army (in Singapore) and fleetingly saw a banner there that says “Jesus is the reason for the season”, and thought that’s how it should be.
I hope the ad is reinstated. Prayer is good for everyone.
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Ahh the end of the year must be approaching. Here down under the days are getting longer and hotter, stores and shopping centres have decorations up and you’ll often see a santa.
And another flippin Christian is complaining about commercialism.
He’s a few weeks early but it was bound to happen. Can’t wait for the inevitable “war on Christmas” whine
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Yep there it is. Bubba is the first with the annual atheist “Christmas whine”. Predictable.
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Wow what a rebuttal “I know I am but what are you” – there are times I’m glad you have the silver fox photo Bryan otherwise I’d swear I was blogging with a schoolboy.
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How witty! Oh dear I have tasted my own medicine and it is bitter!! 🙂
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Yeah we’re a pair alright.
On a more serious note the Christian Christmas Complaints are a regular thing and it’s kinda sad really.
It’s a bit like watching the West Indies playing test cricket. Once upon a time they were an absolute power in the game, but sadly no longer.
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Who would be offended ? I love that prayer.
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I liked the commercial sad that it has been banned. WOW..
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Excellent deconstruction of the Lord’s Prayer, Bryan. It’s too easy, when we become intimately familiar with a prayer, poem, or song, to lose perspective on the meaning. You’ve reminded me of what those 63 words are really about.
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I understand that the company that handles media advertising in UK cinemas (DCM) have a standing policy not to show advertisements that are religious or political in nature. It was commercial decision, and not one that was based on that ad in particular.
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Probably that’s right Stu but of course, the cinema’s executives are perfectly happy to surf the whole commerciality of Christmas
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“…the cinema’s executives are perfectly happy to surf the whole commerciality of Christmas…”
I agree Bryan, and I think that applies to Western society in a general sense, not just cinema executives. However, I can understand why they don’t show ads like this from a commercial perspective – I would apply the same understanding to advertising a different faith, a political party or one of the more recent atheist billboard/bus campaigns.
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Except that this is a complete waste of time. You mentioned that this film clip is to be shown just before the new star wars movie. If one was to go to the pictures to watch the new star wars movie, the effectiveness of this film clip about prayer would be as useful as… as balls on the pope.
Because the interest to go to the pictures on that day is in escapism, and fantasy not prayer and the God to whom this is addressed.
Reminds me of the conversation between an actor and a priest.
Priest : “Why do you have more success in pulling crowds to the theatre, than I have in pulling them to church?”
Actor : “My dear friend, you make real things appear like fantasy, whilst we make fantasy appear like reality”.
On the issue of mixing the secular/profane the prophet Ezekiel had this to say:
‘Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean’ (Ezekiel 22.26).
Faithful priests teach God’s people to reverence the holiness of God:
‘And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean’ (Ezekiel 44.23).
If we are Christians, let’s not play games with the difference between Holy and unholy things, mingling the two. Jesus Christ once said not to cast pearls before swine (ie. present the truths of the gospel to those who are in no position to appreciate them).
Those who opposed this film clip were right to refuse showing it. It is a waste of time, not to mention an insult to both believers and unbelievers. After all you are not going to the pictures to see a message about prayer, but the fantasy that is called Star Wars.
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If that were all true davinci, Jesus wouldn’t have gone to the home of the tax collector. Or have bothered with prostitutes. Or mixed with any people other than priests.
Here’s a deep truth:
Mk.16:15 Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creation
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Yes Bryan, Jesus did go to the tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. because they were willing to listen. Matthew Levi was prepared to leave his tax collecting business and follow Jesus, whilst Zaccheus who was a little man sought Jesus out, before Jesus invited himself to Zaccheus’ house.
Jesus knew who would respond to the gospel invitation and who wouldn’t. That is why He said to preach the gospel starting in Jerusalem, then Samaria, then the rest of the world.
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Trying to defend the indefensible davinci? You’d be better of just admitting you were wrong.
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When the apostles went out to preach the gospel, I don’t think they were selective on who they preached to. They were fishermen. Fishermen cast their nets and leave it to God on what it catches.
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So Dom and Bryan,
Where does it say that Jesus went to a brothel and preached the gospel to the customers immediately before they coupled with the whores? Or the whores immediately before they coupled with their customers? Chapter and verse please.
Secondly, the ancient world was awash with festivals, and theatre plays. Can you give me a Bible passage showing Paul, and any other apostles going to these festivals and preaching the gospel immediately before the pagans engaged in whatever activities they did in honour of their gods?
Come on! It is an easy request for you to fulfil, since both of you have advocated preaching the gospel indiscriminately.
You can’t? Then show me a current minister of the gospel that is currently engaged in preaching the gospel to brothel workers immediately before these are engaging in the perversion they are about to engage in.
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I wouldn’t bother to post a reply to this garbage davinci.
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Interesting you compare a movie theatre to a brothel. Do you consider this to be a valid comparison ?
I am not sure why you do not have the humility to admit you made a mistake. You just keep digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.
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Dom
“Interesting you compare a movie theatre to a brothel. Do you consider this to be a valid comparison ?”
I was responding to Bryan who brought prostitutes in the discussion. But Jesus never preached the gospel to the prostitutes just before they went on their prostitution shift.
It is a valid comparison. Because what the advertisers are attempting to do is preach the gospel to people just about to engage in idolatry (the Force Awakens actually endorses the type of New Age thinking that is opposed to God).
It is interesting that you accuse me of bringing prostitutes into the discussion first. Are you playing games with me old boy? By engaging in that Muslim practice of Taqiyyah (holy deception)?
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Davinci/Hassan, I note that in your area the Seventh Day Adventists are holding a carols service with donkey rides, jumping castle and kids crafts. Gosh, that’s your mob isn’t it? And surely those donkey rides and jumping castles must be evil idolatry in your mind. Have you complained to your council?
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Doing some fishing now I see DV.
I think people have said enough. It’s up to you now.
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So you don’t believe davinci is a Seventh Day Baptist, as he claims to be, Bryan?
No, neither do I. He’s just too legalistic.
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No I think he is a seventh day Adventist Mon. But I don’t know what church he attends or what they think about him. He clearly has his own agenda which is removed from the seventh day Adventist beliefs. I think he is a very sad man with a messiah complex. Best to be ignored.
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Maybe that’s the last we’ll hear from Davinci.. He was caught out in a lie and seems to have run away.
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Like all bullies, who are basically cowards, he fears being challenged and will act as cowards do.
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What absolute rot davinci. Your reply is unbelievable! You totally miss the evangelistic heart of God.
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Monica,
Of course you regard what I have to say as utter rot. You have mingled evil and good for so long that you are unable to hear sound doctrine. Instead you are heaping teachers and teaching methods in accordance with your lusts.
And so have they who mingle prayer (good) with cinemas (evil).
One minute of spiritual things with 120 minutes of satanic things does not a Christian make. Maybe you should look at what you are feeding your mind on.
The Lord rebuke you Satan.
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You’re a rude and ignorant man sometimes davinci.
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And to claim you speak for God and I am the devil for not accepting everything you say as coming from God……who has the greater deception here?
Let me tell you, God speaks to me, and jolly well makes sure I hear Him when it’s important that I do, and He uses anyone and anything to get His message across, not just the self-righteous. Does the miraculous happen to you—often, davinci?
Believe me, if I thought your rebuke was from God, I’d be on my knees asking for God’s forgiveness in a minute, but a clanging cymbal does not make the voice of the Lord—it’s always said in the WRONG spirit!
Btw., Once when I was watching TV, about 20 years ago, (and not the Christian Channel), from out of nowhere flashed across the screen, “Television is the new god of this age” . I was so startled that I actually immediately phoned the TV station up to ask if they had just flashed that message on the screen and they said no—no way. So…..what were you saying again about God’s heart for the likes of me?
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Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[a] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11
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John 13:34-35New King James Version (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
I love davinci, Dom. But I love the Lord more. That’s why I will not stand by without saying anything when he blatantly misrepresents God’s heart for the lost.
Do you understand what he said about the Lord’s Prayer being ‘useless’ if shown at the cinemas? And that a Christian who goes to the cinemas is not really a Christian?
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I love davinci too Mon. As I’m commanded to. But I don’t like him. Or his cult.
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The Father Says Today—25/11/2015
“The Father says today that I am cleansing you with the astringent of My word. No more cutting yourself with stones as the Gaderene among the tombs. I have not called you to a tomb – life, I have called you to abundant life.
Forgive yourself. Be forgiven. Your sins are remitted and forgiven and now you are clean through the word that I have spoken to you. Open your eyes and see not the transgression of days past but rather see forgiveness and cleansing as your portion.
I am pouring out the oil and wine of healing, cleansing and deliverance upon you. Sanctify your eye gate and your heart from the pollutions of idols the enemy would put before you.
I am not angry with you and I am not disappointed in any way. I see your heart and as you apply yourself I will walk you out of the prison house of the enemy and into a new liberty and freedom beyond anything you have ever imagined in your life says the Father.”
Daily Prophetic Word—Father’s Heart Ministry net.
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Thanks for your honesty…..and support, Bryan.
I’m always looking out for the ‘Father’s heart’ in those who claim to be Christian and are given a voice here, and sadly I just do not hear it in davinci and Phillip G’s words. Love draws, doesn’t it? Legalism and condemnation does not!
Last night as I lay in bed about to go to sleep for the night, I just spontaneously broke out in praise and worship in song for the God I love so very much. Couldn’t help myself, it just gushed out from deep within my soul. And my gorgeous hubby, instead of telling me to shut-up and go to sleep, joined in with gusto and we had ourselves a mini church service. And here’s davinci rebuking me as the devil…….
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But that’s not what’s upsetting me. It’s that he’s vehemently quoting scripture to deny God’s sovereignty and the power of prayer.
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davinci:
“Many people make the mistake of trying to reform others, without being reformed themselves in the first place.”
Of course, when you make a statement like this, you clearly don’t apply it to yourself when you say:
“You have mingled evil and good for so long that you are unable to hear sound doctrine.”
Unless, of course, you are suggesting so are so “reformed” that your interpretation of Christian doctrine is unquestionable by folk on this blog. Fortunately, the fact that you have been documented on this blog as having lied repeatedly about making racist comments about black people, attempted to justify the circumstances in which you would sympathise with the KKK and subsequently denied quotes attributed verbatim to you (which are clearly on record), means any of us can see The Force Awakens in the cinema knowing that the only dark side we need to fear is your next post.
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Stu
You should fear my postings.
I asked you and Bryan time and time again to provide the statement that I had made that I was ever a KKK member. You and Bryan could not. The only way you both could make me out as a KKK member was to twist my words out of context.
And the reason why you both did that, was out of the same hatred that the Old Testament prophets received when they rebuked national sins. Pet sins were pointed out in my postings. Your tactics were to try to discredit the messenger instead of the message.
And what racist comments did I repeatedly make about black people? I made no such statement. Not ever. The only way you could possibly find such a statement is if you twist and pervert my statements out of context.
So go and enjoy your perverted fantasy “The Force Awakens”.
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Davinci, Yep the Force awakens.
No-one has said you were or are member of the Ku Klux Klan. But a racist sympathiser? Yes.
Your own words condemn you.
At 2015/07/09 at 17:27 you wrote:
After seeing the atrocities of Rwanda, it would have been very easy for me to sympathise with the ideology of KKK and burn with hatred towards blacks.
You a hypocrite and you don’t seem at all ashamed by that.
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Obviously you did not listen to the word of God when those things that you claim, flashed on your screen.
Some time ago, you were telling us about an ABC documentary on Gay Spas in the UK. I did not watch it at the time, but I did cop a lot of garbage from gay acquintances that I was intolerant to other lifestyles. Which shows the motivation behind making that particular documentary.
You went one further and accused me of uttering a lot of rot, when I pointed out that this stunt with the Lord’s Prayer advertisement is mixing up holy and unholy things.
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“And so have they who mingle prayer (good) with cinemas (evil).”
Does “evil” include the internet? For example when you post verse from the Bible?
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Da Vinci
You must lay awake at night worried about the shadows.
“One minute of spiritual things with 120 minutes of satanic things does not a Christian make. Maybe you should look at what you are feeding your mind on.”
This would also mean that 2 seconds of satanic displaces you as a Christian. You must be worried every second of every day.
I believe God is greater than that.
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Hi Monica
James verse was directed at Da Vinci
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Bryan, who do you think you are kidding when you are writing:
“No-one has said you were or are member of the Ku Klux Klan. But a racist sympathiser? Yes”
Let’s see what you two clowns wrote:
“Maybe you could put this on the agenda at your next Klan meeting.” Stu (July 15)
“Davinci, it was you who a few days admitted some sympathy with the Ku Klux Klan. Funny how you can just ignore that bigotry.” (Bryan July 17)
Except temptation to sympathize does not mean membership, neither does it mean eventual yielding to either sympathy or membership with the KKK… or even succumbing to burning hatred for blacks. Temptation is just that. Temptation.
Keep telling yourself your lies Bryan. You will attain great status in your Jedi Order. And take Stu as your Padawan.
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“Davinci, it was you who a few days admitted some sympathy with the Ku Klux Klan. Funny how you can just ignore that bigotry.” (Bryan July 17)
Yep I stand by that. NOTHING could justify your statement. NOTHING.
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davinci:
“I asked you and Bryan time and time again to provide the statement that I had made that I was ever a KKK member.”
Neither Bryan nor I ever seriously suggested that you were a member of the KKK. It was you the fact that you lied about even using the term KKK – despite both Bryan and I quoting you verbatim.
“Pet sins were pointed out in my postings.”
So you are a fully “reformed” Christian who qualifies to proclaim judgment on contributors to this site?
“And what racist comments did I repeatedly make about black people?”
Re-read what I wrote – I didn’t say that you repeatedly made racist comments, I said you made one racist comment and repeatedly lied about making it. Specifically, you made comments about circumstances in which you might “burn with hatred” towards black people, as if anything could justify such a comment.
“So go and enjoy your perverted fantasy “The Force Awakens”.”
Go, I will. Enjoy it, I shall.
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davinci:
“Temptation is just that. Temptation.”
It’s interesting you were tempted to sympathise with the KKK or hate black people. I can’t imagine anything tempting me to do or even think about doing those things.
“Keep telling yourself your lies Bryan. You will attain great status in your Jedi Order. And take Stu as your Padawan.”
So, you have “engaged in idolatry” by watching or reading about Star Wars and developed an understanding of the narrative. Do you also visit brothels to gain an understanding of “the perversion brothel workers engage in”?
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Davinci,
Is this a joke?….. “You should fear my postings”
Also…. “Obviously you did not listen to the word of God when those things that you claim, flashed on your screen”
So the first thing you do is to point out my sin/ guilt? Spoken like a true Pharisee. How about that the Lord may have been communicating a truth to me, just for the sake of teaching me? But wait, don’t tell me He doesn’t talk to you that way? 😯
As Dom said, wisdom kicks in here and shuts down any further correspondence with you as you are clearly unable to hear.
I’ve gotta say this though, you think that Gay program I watched was designed to give you grief for standing up for righteousness? No davinci! It’s not about YOU.
And about mixing the ‘holy’ with the ‘unholy’, the way I understand that is to mean the mixture we have in our hearts/minds/motives. And until we are perfected, we will continue to have mixture because we are fallible, finite creatures needing God’s forgiveness and grace to perfect us unto holiness as God is holy. It has nothing to do with an advert for the Lord’s Prayer at the cinemas. You totally miss the point!
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By the way Bryan – sorry, I mean Master, I can’t make tonight’s Jedi training session as there’s a Padawan’s union meeting on. But I promise to return and finish what I’ve begun. You have my word.
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That’s ok Padawan. You are excused – just this once. Did you take my cape to be drycleaned?
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Dry cleaning is hanging right next to your lightsaber, Master.
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Thank you trusty apprentice. Pleased I am.
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Davinci professes to be Seventh Day Baptist, not Seventh Day Adventist. He does not of course represent them. In fact they say
“Seventh Day Baptists consider liberty of thought, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to be essential to Christian belief and practice. We therefore encourage the unhindered study and open discussion of Scripture, and uphold the individual’s freedom of conscience in seeking to understand and obey the will of God. It is for this reason that we have no binding creed.
“We hold, however, that certain beliefs and practices, having the support of Scripture, and adhered to by the followers of Christ through the centuries, are binding upon all.
“With this conviction in mind, we present the following brief statement, derived from our understanding of the Bible, as an expression of our common belief.
2Cor. 3:17,18; 2Tim 2:15; 3:16,17; Rom 12:2; 10:17; Eph 4:3-6,15.”
http://www.asdba.org/about/statement-of-belief
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Response to Dom’s quote of Scripture namely:
“Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[a] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11”
It is also written:
“Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”
James 4:4.
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Perhaps a lesson in that for you davinci.
Matthew 23Contemporary English Version (CEV)
23 Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.
4 They pile heavy burdens on people’s shoulders and won’t lift a finger to help. 5 Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tassels[a] for everyone to see. 6 They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places. 7 And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers.
8 But none of you should be called a teacher. You have only one teacher, and all of you are like brothers and sisters. 9 Don’t call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven. 10 None of you should be called the leader. The Messiah is your only leader. 11 Whoever is the greatest should be the servant of the others. 12 If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored.
13-14 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won’t go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in.[b]
15 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You travel over land and sea to win one follower. And when you have done so, you make that person twice as fit for hell as you are.
16 You are in for trouble! You are supposed to lead others, but you are blind. You teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the temple. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gold in the temple. 17 You blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18 You also teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the altar. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gift on the altar. 19 Are you blind? Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Anyone who swears by the altar also swears by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple also swears by God, who lives there. 22 To swear by heaven is the same as swearing by God’s throne and by the one who sits on that throne.
23 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24 You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.
25 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean.
27 You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You’re like tombs that have been whitewashed.[c] On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28 That’s what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good.
29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?
34 I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town. 35 That’s why you will be held guilty for the murder of every good person, beginning with the good man Abel. This also includes Barachiah’s son Zechariah,[d] the man you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!
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Response to Dom’s quote of Scripture namely
Actually James 4:11 was directed at your treatment of Monica,
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Core beliefs are so much more than ideas or ideals, they are identification and identity. Who we understand ourselves to be is formed around them. It is important for Davinci to be right, I think, even if it makes everyone else wrong. For him to be wrong would destroy his sense of self.
We should not worry, just let go and let God, who has plenty time to work his wonders. God too loves Davinci.
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I think the mixing is you.
Mixed up that is!
“let’s not play games with the difference between Holy and unholy things…Jesus Christ once said not to cast pearls before swine”
These are two different concepts. A non believer may indeed not be Holy but one may cast a pearl to bring them to Christ.
“Those who opposed this film clip were right to refuse showing it. It is a waste of time”.
How do you know it is a waste of time? As a believer I do not find it offensive so please do not speak for me when saying believers will find it offensive.
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Alexie:
“As a believer I do not find it offensive so please do not speak for me…”
As a non believer, I also don’t find the ad offensive and davinci certainly doesn’t speak for for this unbeliever. I do, however, understand why the company has a policy not to show religious or political advertising.
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“escapism, and fantasy not prayer ”
Your irony award will be posted to you. Congratulations.
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I have heard this said.
“Do not give the sacred to literalists
lest it become mundane.
Do not cast pearls before swine,
lest they destroy them.
But give to the literalists
that which they can digest
without harm.
Do not reach a sword
for a child.”
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Bryan says “I don’t believe the film will offend or upset audiences, in the way they mean, and I don’t believe it creates a new precedent. ” I don’t believe so either. Maybe Jesus adapted it a bit when he asked us to use it – Luke 11:2. But it was probably brought from Egypt in the Exodus, from a time when Egypt was monotheistic under the Hebrew related Hyksos – Shepherd Kings.
So there is no reason it should not be acceptable to Jews, Muslims, or Christians – the Abrahamic faiths.
I think though that trouble could arise if faiths other than specifically Christian want to put their prayers up on the public screen. I can imagine many Christians reacting in opposition. Then what is to be done?
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The equivalent of the Lord’s prayer in Islam;
In the name of God, the infinitely Compassionate and Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of all the worlds.
The Compassionate, the Merciful. Ruler on the Day of Reckoning.
You alone do we worship, and You alone do we ask for help.
Guide us on the straight path, the path of those who have received your grace;
not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray.
Amen.
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Amen
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This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’
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“And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask ME for anything in my name, and I will do it.” John 14:13-14
“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.” John 15:16
“In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.” John 16:23
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That of Judaism-
The Shema
Origin: The book of Deuteronomy, chapter 6
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
Blessed be the Name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart.
And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit at home, and when you walk along the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Prayer/Essential-Prayers-Of-World-Religions.aspx?p=2#cpOQlvcfRRbIxBYq.99
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So Dom where is the part of the Islamic “equivalent” of the Lord’s prayer which talks about forgiving those that trespass against us?
Aah! That’s right! There isn’t any.
Thus Muslims are justified in hunting down Salma Rushdie, 9/11, 13/11, Bali Bombings, Charlie Hebdo, etc.
Not to mention John Saffran who converted to Islam and then put a fatwa on Rove Mcmanus.
What is amazing is that Bryan then says amen to this morally bankrupt “equivalent” to the Lord’s Prayer.
And I bet Bryan will censor this comment.
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Now now Vladimir. Ignorance is not excuse.
Do you know the difference between reality and satire?
John Safron did not convert to Islam. You made that bit up didn’t you mate?
And the fatwah attempt was SATIRE!!1
And did you know an FBI report shows that only a small percentage of terrorist attacks carried out on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 were perpetrated by Muslims.Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks in America. According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). But I don’t see you stereotyping all Jews.
BTW
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So Dom where is the part of the Islamic “equivalent” of the Lord’s prayer which talks about forgiving those that trespass against us?
For your viewing Da Vinci.
those who give in times of both ease and hardship, those who control their rage and pardon other people – Allah loves the good-doers – (Surat Al ‘Imran, 134)
Bryan has already commented on the other stuff you said. I suggest a small amount of research and contemplation before posting.
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“Secondly, the ancient world was awash with festivals, and theatre plays. Can you give me a Bible passage showing Paul, and any other apostles going to these festivals and preaching the gospel immediately before the pagans engaged in whatever activities they did in honour of their gods?”
Too easy. Paul spent a lot of time in Athens getting to know the gods of Athens and then preached to them with the unknown God. As you say, awash. So we know they must have spent time at these festival. How else could they bring them to Christ. Go into all the nations we are told. Even the pagan filled ones.
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Once again you have muddled things up Alexie. The incident you refer to is found in Acts 17. The relevant points are described below:
– He reasoned with Jews and God-fearing Gentiles in the synagogue and the market place (verses 17). These were neither pagans, nor was it in the context of pagan temples.
– Stoics and Epicureans began to discuss what Paul was preaching (verse 17). But not whilst worshipping in a pagan temple.
– Paul is being brought before the Areopagus to clarify what he was teaching (verse 19-21) This is not in the context of engaging in an act of pagan worship. But rather in an act of exchanging ideas with people who were engaging in discussing the latest ideas.
– Paul explains that he was looking carefully at what they worshipped, not engaging in what they worshipped, not even touching what they worshipped (verse 22). This might be suggestive in Alexie’s mind that he engaged in pagan worship. Except when we consider other verses in the bible we find that the sacred record tells us something entirely different.
In another verse he says “come out from among them and touch not the unclean” (2 Cor 6:17). So he could not participated in the pagan festival or going to the pagan temples.
If he did, he would have been in trouble with the Jews. Remember that they were always on his tracks accusing him of transgressing the law. But they didn’t because he didn’t engage in idolatry. Ever.
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Even you don’t believe your own statement Alexie.
When you chose not to be a muslim, Satanist, Scientologist, or whatever other religion you choose not to be, you don’t do so by participating in their festivals or religious observances. You most likely reject these religions by reading what their clergy and theologians have written about their own religion.
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Or you get a life, stop being scared of your own shadow and just stop spreading mischief. That’d be a start.
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Even you don’t believe your own statement Alexie.
When you chose not to be a muslim, Satanist, Scientologist, or whatever other religion you choose not to be, you don’t do so by participating in their festivals or religious observances. You most likely reject these religions by reading what their clergy and theologians have written about their own religion.
Maybe you do not know Paul as well as you thought, From reading into it, he was not choosing to be a pagan, he wanted to get their confidence.
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“When you chose not to be a muslim, Satanist, Scientologist, or whatever other religion you choose not to be”
Call me a Calvinist if you wish but God chose me. He changed my heart so I was able to say yes to Him and not another. As the first commandment shows, I place God first.
I have attended Mind Body Spirit new age festivals. Does that make me an idolator? I went as a follower of Christ and followed Pauls example.
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Here is a book on
Engaging the (Neo)Pagan Mind:
Paul’s Encounter with Athenian Culture
as a Model for Cultural Apologetics
J. Daryl Charles
It speaks of Acts 17:16–34
Click to access athenian_charles.pdf
Deissmann noted that the Apostle’s aim was to “exhibit to
pagans of a great city in the Mediterranean world what was characteristic of the new religion as concisely as possible
St. Paul the Traveller and the Roman Citizen (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1895) 252
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This illustrates it better.
The Christian community must understand the culture in which it has been placed by the Sovereign Lord. By demonstrating an understanding of culture, it is then able to engage culture with a measure of credibility. Finally, having humbly sought to be a student of and active participant in culture , the church is able to confront the false values that are lodged within culture. Perception,engagement, and confrontation necessarily follow—in this order. ***
***
Paul’s cultural accommodation in Athens should not be misconstrued as syncretization. Paul accommodated
himself, not the message, to the level and philosophical assumptions of his audience. See W. J. Larkin, Jr.,
Culture and Biblical Hermeneutics: Interpreting and Applying the Authoritative Word in a Relativistic Age
(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1988) 319-21.
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Well put Dom. This is the third time within a month I have agreed with you. But I am sure something about Islam will come up to put a stop to that:)
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“Once again you have muddled things up Alexie.”
Again? I did not know I was muddled once let alone again!
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None of these four prayers are equivalent to the Lord’s Prayer, but I would love a translation of them, if anyone knows?
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Rather biased toward Christian prayer. I can understand why it is banned. A more culturally inclusive commercial about prayer and thoughtfulness would be a much more respectful approach if the intention is to encourage it.
I certainly don’t miss having to hear that prayer like I had to every day in my primary school years. Not a very positive experience in regard to Christianity for me.
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What part of it did you find uncomfortable Jason?
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Having to sit through the same thing over and over every single day with no good reason to do so made me uncomfortable. I felt the same way about the national anthem as well – especially when we were encouraged to sing along with it.
As for the ad, it only references Christian prayer while trying to suggest a non-exclusionary message about prayer being for everyone. I find that to be problematic.
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I can understand it being problematic for a child.
“‘Our Father in heaven, (Every child does not have a positive image of a father. He may be an uncomfortable disciplinarian, an ineffectual presence, or other negative values. And he’s away in heaven, anyway.)
hallowed be your name,(To a child I think that’s meaningless)
your kingdom come, (Is this strange kingdom frightening?)
your will be done, (Or else! Look out!)
on earth as it is in heaven. (That’s understandable)
Give us today our daily bread. (Just bread? Can’t I have milk too?)
And forgive us our tresspasses
as we forgive those who tresspass against us. ( What about them forgiving me. It’s fine for you and me to forgive, but I still have to put up with their blaming)
And lead us not into temptation,(But I’ll still led UNTO temptation?)
but deliver us from the evil one. (Ah yes, that’s good!)
So there’s a lot that needs clarifying to a child.
I liked Bishop Croft’s interpretation, which seems to me could be summarised as-
“You, our Creator, who guides and guards us,
help us to find purpose in our lives,
to keep our greed in check,
to see our own imperfections,
to find ways of reconciliation,
and to build a resilience in our spirits.
All this, that we might live to the glory of You.”
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It’s also problematic when you don’t hold Christian beliefs. It would likely be more useful/helpful if it was secularized so that it could more easily be understood and applicable to everyone.
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Bill and Ted said it best “be excellent to each other, and party on dudes”
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There’s a fine line between audacity and idiocy
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