Dare to believe what you often might not see

belief

THOMAS Edison was a great inventor, but he could not predict airline travel.
“It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane have been exhausted and that we must turn elsewhere,” he said in 1895.
In the same year, Lord Kelvin, president of Britain’s Royal Society, declared: “Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.”
How could they get it so wrong?
“Space travel is bunk,” said Sir Harold Spencer Jones, Astronomer Royal of Britain, in 1957, two weeks before the Soviet Union’s launch of Sputnik started the space age.
The Spanish Commission, rejecting Christopher Columbus’s proposal to sail west, argued: “So many centuries after the Creation, it is unlikely that anyone could find hitherto unknown lands of any value.”
It’s amazing how often theories that seem solid are found to be in error.
There’s a commonly held theory that the Bible stories, particularly the ones about Noah and his Ark, Moses and the Red Sea and the Tower of Babel cannot be scientifically proven.
But there is some evidence that, although the Bible is not a book about science and is sometimes more about analogies, it is also often scientifically and historically accurate.
The Ark story, with its logistical problems of how Noah and his family managed to get at least two of each species on board, is generally accepted as at least partly mythical. But in 1609 at Hoorn, in Holland, Pieter Jansen produced a vessel after the pattern of the ark, only smaller, and said he proved it was well adapted for floating, and would carry a cargo greater by one-third than any other form of ship.
Lloyd’s Register of Shipping has commented that the Ark’s design revolutionised shipping up until 1900 when every large vessel on the high seas was inclined toward the proportions of Noah’s boat.
Shipbuilders during World War II, using the same ratios as the Ark, built a boat that came to be known as the ugly duckling, a barge-like boat built to carry tremendous amounts of cargo.The Bible writers somehow portrayed astonishing scientific truths far ahead of their time.
At a time when it was commonly thought the Earth was perched on giant spokes, the Old Testament spoke of the planet free floating in space. There was no scientific proof of that until the 17th Century.
The Book of Isaiah, written about 28 centuries ago, spoke of the Earth being spherical about three centuries before Aristotle suggested the same thing and 2000 years before Columbus proved it.
In another astonishing piece of foreknowledge, the Bible talked of cycles of air currents around the Earth a couple of millennia before scientists discovered them.
The Bible says the universe began in an instant. Science once theorised the universe and all life forms evolved over time. Now scientists believe the universe began in an instant — a Big Bang.
Ralph Waldo Emerson said the religion that was afraid of science dishonoured God.
Writer Gary Zukav said acceptance without proof was the fundamental characteristic of Western religion; and rejection without proof was the fundamental characteristic of Western science.
The Bible is all about real things, the real origin, history and destiny of man and the universe.
It’s also about love and, as Albert Einstein said, gravitation cannot be responsible for people falling in love.
Einstein also said religion, arts and sciences were branches of the same tree.
“All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man’s life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom,” he said.
The Bible has always proclaimed that among God’s gifts are human minds capable of critical thought.

 

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97 thoughts on “Dare to believe what you often might not see

  1. I can’t understand people of any religious persuasion who put science and religion in opposing positions. Don’t they believe God created all the scientific facts that we continue to discover?
    And has not God instituted mechanisms other than gravity, which allow us to fall in love?

    But there is a difference between loving and falling in love, although they can be concurrent.
    “Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being ‘in love’ which any of us can convince ourselves we are. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away…”
    —Louis de Bernières, Correlli’s Mandolin

    But religion doesn’t make children more loving. From my perspective that could apply to many adults too!

    “What the researchers found is that the religious children were significantly less likely to share their stickers than the kids from non-religious backgrounds. This non-altruistic behaviour was also more pronounced in children who had been exposed to religion for a longer time, although all the kids in the study in general showed more inclination to share as they grew older.

    “The religious kids were also more likely to favour stronger punishments for the anti-social behaviour and interpersonal harm they witnessed in the animations – and were harsher in their judgment than non-religious children when it came to assessing the meanness of characters onscreen bumping into one another.

    “Together, these results reveal the similarity across countries in how religion negatively influences children’s altruism,” said Decety. “They challenge the view that religiosity facilitates prosocial behaviour, and call into question whether religion is vital for moral development – suggesting the secularisation of moral discourse does not reduce human kindness. In fact, it does just the opposite.”

    http://www.sciencealert.com/study-finds-religion-actually-tends-to-make-kids-less-generous?utm_source=Article&utm_medium=Website&utm_campaign=InArticleReadMore

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    • Perhaps this is because religion is so often all about ‘me’.
      ‘My. sins.
      ‘My’ hope of salvation.
      ‘My’ desire for a Heavenly hereafter
      ‘My’ obedience to commandments
      ‘My’ faith

      And even when it’s about ‘you’, it’s often – not always I grant – about ‘my’ efforts to help you, and/or the bigger deal, ‘my’ efforts to save you. Every line of the following refers to ‘me’. But I love the melody!

      “Still I am singing, Jesus, of Thee,
      Blessed Redeemer, so precious to me,
      Toiling in weakness, trying to bring
      Souls to thy Kingdom, Jesus my King.”.

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      • somebody said recently “we have only one way of knowing God – personal experience.”

        So maybe it is all about me ?

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      • In that sense Bubba, I guess so, but not in a self-centred sense, where your mind is on yourself. In an experiential sense it is involuntary, a thing that happens TO you.

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      • ‘My. sins.
        ‘My’ hope of salvation.
        ‘My’ desire for a Heavenly hereafter
        ‘My’ obedience to commandments
        ‘My’ faith

        That is because in order to help others overcome sins, you need to overcome your own sins. You need to know how your personal sins are overcome, what tactics to use, when to use them, etc.

        You cannot be the light of the world without the knowledge of how to overcome sin, how to become obedient to God’s commandments, etc.

        Many people make the mistake of trying to reform others, without being reformed themselves in the first place.

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      • Hey Strewth,

        ” a thing that happens TO you.”

        Right so definitely all about me. God’s only real value is what he can do to/for you right ?

        Isn’t that the essence of Christianity ?

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      • Bubba, if you experience something it does not necessarily be all about you. For instance if you experience the sight of a disaster, even on tv, yes, you personally are experiencing it, the horror of it, not with your mind on yourself, but totally on the victims.

        Now you’re a smart enough bloke to know this anyway, aren’t you.

        As for Christianity, perhaps for many Christians there is a great deal of self interest, but I think not for all. I wouldn’t know whether to call myself one or not. In some people’s eyes yes, in others, a definite no. I’m content with that.

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    • “I can’t understand people of any religious persuasion who put science and religion in opposing positions.”

      I do not get it either. I know atheists want to split the two for their own agenda’s but generally I cannot see how you can. It was people of faith reading the Bible who then wanted to find out about the creation. This was show science came about, our education systems and our civilisation in the west.

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      • Davinci, it would be great to think that you, in order to help others overcome sins, have overcome your own sins. That you know how your personal sins were overcome, what tactics to use, when to use them, etc.

        It would be great if you were the light of the world, with the knowledge of how to overcome sin, how to become obedient to God’s commandments, etc.

        It’s great if you have not make the mistake of trying to reform others, without being reformed yourself in the first place.

        Me, I’m not reformed. This post shows my passive aggression!
        I wonder why I still feel led to post it?

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  2. Bryan is this your work :-
    The Bible has always proclaimed that among God’s gifts are human minds capable of critical thought.

    For I ask is that “critical thought” a one way street.
    Religions are basically a authoritarian group that,s main aim is to protect their position.
    Assigning themselves as those who have the “critical thought” above others .
    And note you do not state ALL human minds capable of critical thought.
    Religions would not have a chance if everyone had critical thought to a standard the leaders of religions claim to have.
    There would be no sheep to herd.
    Aaah !!
    That,s a piece of “”CRITICAL THOUGHT””

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    • “Religions are basically a authoritarian group that,s main aim is to protect their position.
      Assigning themselves as those who have the “critical thought” above others.”

      Wow! The level of false premise here is staggering.
      You really do need to apply some critical thought to this!

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  3. The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

    – Carl Sagan

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  4. The miracles in the bible are from God to get people’s attention. They are for those that ponder.

    Miracles in the Quran

    We made every living thing from water? Will they not believe? (Quran 21:30)

    The fact that living things consist mostly of water was discovered only after the invention of the microscope. In the deserts of Arabia, the last thing someone would have guessed is that all life came from water.

    “We sent down Iron with its great inherent strength and its many benefits for humankind.” (Quran 57:25)

    God uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity. The fact that Iron came down to earth from outer space is something which could not be known by the primitive science of the 7th century.

    “Darkness out in a deep ocean which is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds, layers of darkness, one upon the other. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. Those God gives no light to, they have no light.” (Quran 24:40)

    It is commonly thought that waves only occur on the surface of the ocean. However oceanographers have discovered that there are internal waves that take place below the surface of the ocean. These waves are invisible to the human eye, and can only be detected by specialist equipment[8]. The Quran mentions darkness in a deep ocean above which are waves, above which are waves, then clouds above that. This description is not only remarkable because it describes the internal waves in the ocean, but also because it describes darkness deep in the ocean. A human being can dive no more than 70 metres without breathing equipment. Light is present at that depth, but if we go down 1000 metres it is completely dark[9]. 1400 years ago there were no submarines or specialist equipment to discover internal waves or the darkness deep inside the oceans.

    “We shall show them Our signs in the Universe and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is the witness of all things?” (Quran 41:53)

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      • Dom :-
        God uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity

        Gee Dom what a spin !
        Iron is the breaking point for THERMONUCLEAR reactions !
        Every element along the periodic table transforms matter into energy .
        That way stars increase in energy levels all the way towards IRON if they have enough mass to start with.
        If they son,t they run out of gravity to progress and they fade.
        If massive enough they charge towards “IRON”
        The problem is “” IRON”” actually “”CONSUMES ENERGY””.
        The star loses the energy almost instantly to push out the mass .
        The mass of it,s outer falls instantly !
        The star actually implodes .
        And that creates ALL the elements from IRON onward,s .
        And the star then goes “”SUPER NOVA””
        And what remains of the star is a ball of “NEUTRONS” about 30 kilometer diameter that carries the spin of the starts momentum pulled down to just 15 kilometer radius.
        Thus the spin is in some cases is truly incredible .
        They call them Millisecond Pulsar .
        So where is all that information penned within your book .
        If religions want to brag about what is in their book I would expect more accurate detail.
        And some hard data within backing it up .
        What actually comes across is alike a made up story be a child .

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      • And this DOM :-
        but was sent down for the benefit of humanity.
        Sent down !!
        Really !!!
        But that would mean all that “IRON “” managed to get to the center of the planet . Maybe there was a massive empty section there waiting for the “”IRON””
        Then when it arrived and in position it was magnetized .
        And all “For the benefit of humanity””.
        The mammals that have only been on this planet for the last say 500,000 years of the four billions tears this planet has existed.
        Perceptive time !
        Crocodiles have been around 200,000,000 years

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      • I like how Uranium changes many times till it becomes a gas called radon then back to a solid and eventually lead.

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    • A Belgian member of Parliament, Geoffrey Dieudonné, was among those killed, Belgium’s regional Parliament said. Dieudonné was training officials from Mali’s Parliament. The Parliament said the precise circumstances of his death are not yet known.

      the scourge of islamophobia is spreading in Mali. What can whitey Mc White, the white privilege drama queen, do to combat, Islamophics in Mali’s Radisson hotel district.

      The solution is to surrender Christian churches to secularists to broker peace.

      Make love not war. Paris Eiffel tower in a circle symbol. Meanwhile Islamophobic xenophobes rally in Melbourne tomorrow to cause a break in Utopia’s bubbles. If only they knew islam like you do Bryan. Teach louder.!

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  5. Canon Andrew White in the british Spectator:- [he’s walked the walk, talked the talk, done hard yards of study]
    ‘The trouble is a lack of forgiveness in Islam. I have looked through the Quran trying to find forgiveness… there isn’t any. If you find it, tell me. This makes it very difficult to talk to Isis because they can show you quite clearly that it is what Allah wants. They can justify their position when Allah says you should combat and fight the infidel and they say, “Well, these are infidels.” So the question is, how can you prove that these are not infidels? And you can’t.’

    it’s not about me Bryan, I’m just trying to save a life here. cheers. Preventing the wider war won’t come with candle vigils.

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    • Canon White, the former vicar of Baghdad, also said in the same interview: “How can you deal with evil men? With these evil Muslims?” Well, I don’t like the term evil Muslims. They are no more evil than Christians are. We haven’t got a very good history either, have we?’

      And on dealing with ISIS he said: “War creates war and we have to find other ways round doing it”.

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      • “War creates war”? Yep, but sometimes that’s what must be done to put a stop to our enemies. You cannot reason with evil. Read, “What does the Bible say about war?” Got Questions Org.

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      • Even the wars the West has won, WWI and WWII, at incredible cost to human life, have proven to be the seeds of greater evil. For instance, WWII arose because of the reparation demands made regarding WWII. Then again the victors of WWII, while avoiding that mistake, made another that threatens the world today.

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      • A poll by research association Gallop International questioned 66,000 people across 65 countries and found that more people voted the USA as a bigger danger to world peace than Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan combined.

        Despite the fact that congress last officially declared war in 1941, since World War II, America has been engaged in more wars than any other country. War is fundamental part of the USA’s political strategy for world domination. Since the country was founded in 1776, it has been in war for more than 93% of its existence.

        You know them by their fruits.

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      • While poll respondents seem anxious about the United States’ role in world affairs, many of them would have no problems moving to America if they could. The United States topped WIN/Gallup’s list of top countries people would move to with 9 percent of the vote. Canada and Australia came in second with 7 percent apiece, while 38 percent said they were happy exactly where they are.

        Overall, responders seemed remarkably optimistic about their own futures, despite any misgivings about the United States. Nearly 50 percent of responders say that 2014 will be better than 2013, the first time since 1990 that people thought a better year was on the way.

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      • Of more than 66,000 people surveyed the world over, 24% of respondents believed that the U.S. was the greatest threat to world peace. Pakistan and China got eight and six percent of the votes respectively while Iran, Israel, North Korea and Afghanistan tied for fourth place with four percent of the votes.
        Pakistan’s respondents considered the U.S. as the biggest threat, even above India which is traditionally perceived to be its rival. China too, voted for the U.S. as the greatest threat, followed by Japan.
        A majority of Russians voted for the U.S. as the biggest threat at 54%.
        Primarily Middle Eastern and North African countries affected by U.S. military intervention considered the U.S. as a threat.

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      • Good news

        http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/
        Recent attacks in Paris, Beirut and Baghdad linked to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) have once again brought terrorism and Islamic extremism to the forefront of international relations. According to newly released data that the Pew Research Center collected in 11 countries with significant Muslim populations, people from Nigeria to Jordan to Indonesia overwhelmingly expressed negative views of ISIS.

        One exception was Pakistan, where a majority offered no definite opinion of ISIS. The nationally representative surveys were conducted as part of the Pew Research Center’s annual global poll in April and May this year.

        In no country surveyed did more than 15% of the population show favorable attitudes toward Islamic State. And in those countries with mixed religious and ethnic populations, negative views of ISIS cut across these lines.

        In Lebanon, a victim of one of the most recent attacks, almost every person surveyed who gave an opinion had an unfavorable view of ISIS, including 99% with a very unfavorable opinion. Distaste toward ISIS was shared by Lebanese Sunni Muslims (98% unfavorable) and 100% of Shia Muslims and Lebanese Christians.

        Israelis (97%) and Jordanians (94%) were also strongly opposed to ISIS as of spring 2015, including 91% of Israeli Arabs. And 84% in the Palestinian territories had a negative view of ISIS, both in the Gaza Strip (92%) and the West Bank (79%).

        Six-in-ten or more had unfavorable opinions of ISIS in a diverse group of nations, including Indonesia, Turkey, Nigeria, Burkina Faso, Malaysia and Senegal.

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      • US is like around the world

        A global survey of 40 countries by the Pew Research Center finds that large numbers of people have a favourable opinion of the United States, its economy and the US-led fight against the Islamic State.
        Overall, the US is largely seen in a positive light, with a global median of 69% of people saying they viewed the US favourably. That’s up from 65% in 2013 and 2014, says Pew.
        But when it comes to the issue of post-9/11 interrogation techniques – which many consider to be torture – the US has received a worldwide rebuke.
        http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33249752

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      • While poll respondents seem anxious about the United States’ role in world affairs, many of them would have no problems moving to America if they could.

        Good point Alexie. To reconcile the two I think a country that has the resources to spend 460 billion on military is a lot safer place to live than an enemy like Russia which spends 50 billion. The US does most of it oppression and destabilisation overseas.

        http://www.thenation.com/article/when-will-us-military-end-its-pattern-destabilizing-entire-regions/

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      • Dom your propaganda against the US and by defect, Israel is astounding. Russia spends a vastly more amount than 50 B. In fact per GDP they spend more than the US plus arms to Syria and Iran. As far as oppression Russia has its fair share.

        Saudi Arabia alone spends about 10.1 percent. Lets not mention the oppression across most of the Islamic world and the growing terror emanating from it.

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      • Dom your propaganda against the US and by defect, Israel is astounding. Russia spends a vastly more amount than 50 B.

        IHS Inc. estimated the 2013 Russian military budget as being US$68.9 billion, US$78 billion in 2014, and predict a rise to US$98 billion in 2016.

        Putin said 50 billion in an interview. The figure is not far from that 78 billion.

        I was also out for US military spending whch is $598.5 billion.

        https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spending-united-states/?gclid=CNvlhP7UoskCFdgTvQodRW8A4A

        Lies, lies and statistics. Percentage of GDP. Is more flattering for richer countries. In the end there is a fixed amount that is needed for military spending to defend your borders. Russia has a longer border and larger area than the US so they have more to defend. You would expect their spending to be greater. US spending is off the richer scale but you would expect that being in war for 93% of your existence would account for that.

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      • I knew your figures were incorrect.
        The Russian figures are way out.
        The defence industry in Russia is 20% of its economy.
        Are you saying their economy is only about 250 to 300 billion a year? This would be based on your figures for defence spending. Russia is the biggest arms dealer along with the US. You must think people are stupid to believe you.

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      • Oh dear so now I must think people are stupid to believe me ? So basically you are calling me dishonest. Resorting to ad homien attacks again to discredit me so you don’t need to counter anything I say, I must have you pretty well backed into a corner again.

        You stated my figures are way off. Different web sites site different figures but they in a close range. Please provide your dollar figures and sources for the expenditure of military for the two countries and we will see how different it is from 460 – 600 billion for the US.

        https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spending-united-states/

        and Russia 50 to 80 billion range that is out there.

        http://press.ihs.com/press-release/aerospace-defense-terrorism/global-defence-budgets-overall-rise-first-time-five-years

        The figures above agree with what Putin gives.

        http://www.globalresearch.ca/have-you-any-common-sense-putin-crushes-bbc-journalists-stupid-questions/5483975

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    • Must not have looked very hard

      Just one I found in 5 seconds

      those who give in times of both ease and hardship, those who control their rage and pardon other people – Allah loves the good-doers – (Surat Al ‘Imran, 134)

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    • “You know them by their fruits.”

      Is this applied to Islam too Dom?

      Applies to Muslims not following Islam. The Muslims are being punished for it by God.

      The fruits of the illegal invasion of Iraq was a destabilized region from which ISIS emerged.

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      • Saddam started it all. He funded many of the current groups with Syria and Iran. When will muslim countries bring in ground troops to stop ISIS? Do you think they should? Of course not because you guys want the Shia government gone at whatever cost.

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      • What proof do you have that Saddam started it ? I have not read anything to suggest Saddam started it. He had his own army. Why would he call in a bunch of vigilantes ?

        Clark stated in a recent CNN interview: “ISIS got started through funding from our friends and allies. Because as people will tell you in the region that if you want somebody who will fight to the death against Hezbollah, you don’t put out a recruiting poster saying, ‘sign up for us. We’re gonna make a better world.’ You go after zealots and you go after these religious fundamentalists. That’s who fights Hezbollah. It’s like a Frankenstein.”

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      • How ISIS spread in the Middle East

        The story of ISIS teaches the same basic lesson that emerged from America’s other failures in the Middle East over the last decade: Attempts by the United States or Islamist rebels to topple authoritarian regimes—in Iraq, Libya, and now Syria—create power vacuums. This empty political space will be filled by extremists unless the United States and its allies build strong local forces that can suppress terrorist groups and warlords both. When the U.S. creates such local forces, it must be persistent. If it withdraws from these efforts, as America did in Iraq in 2011, it invites mayhem. Halfway American intervention has produced nothing but trouble. Rebels have gotten enough support to continue fighting, but not enough to win.

        http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/how-isis-started-syria-iraq/412042/

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      • That is one of the reasons why the US is the most dangerous country in the world. Regions are treated like pawns in a game.

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      • Quite apart from how much US considers its own interests above another country’s, I see America as being in a bind. They are accused firstly of interfering, then not staying until the problem is solved.

        Espousing democracy, how can they stay longer than the locals want, once the ‘bad guys’ are out?

        I am not in favour of much that US has done, but I think it’s often beyond the control of the government and the people. It comes from big business including arms dealers and multinational companies taking advantage of popular opinion – whether that be forged out of concern for innocent sufferers, or fear for their own wellbeing.

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      • What is done is done. Now jail time and payment needs to be done for crimes committed and the consequences of their crimes.

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    • Do you lay awake at night thinking about the poor little Yazidi girls, some as young as eight that we are aware of, being raped, over and over again by those ISIL dogs? I do CB. I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot those dogs myself!

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      • Monica That,s one thing I will “”NEVER” do.
        I see no reason to kill another person.
        However I see no reason to protect them from each other.
        If a person decides to live outside “empathy for others” then put them with their kind.

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      • I can never be as sure as you about my actions CB. Wish I could. Trouble is that I no longer see them as human. And if that disqualifies me from labelling myself “Christian”, then so be it. They are a scourge to humanity that needs to be stopped. Even Islam disowns them.

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      • Monica :-
        Trouble is that I no longer see them as human.
        And they are the same words used by them.
        Just look at the other as less than you and all the GOODY GOODY STUFF is put aside.

        A “BELIEF” they are unworthy.
        How many billions have had that thought in their head.
        That,s what makes “WAR “”possible.

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      • I think Monica, when you say “I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot those dogs myself!” that’s more what you would like to do than what you actually would do – unless you were in a position to prevent their action.

        In Australia no killing of others is excusable unless as an act of war, or the killer is present and acts in self defense or the defence of others present. Not acting in outrage at some heinous but more distant act, for the law in that case decides how to respond.

        http://www.thomsonreuters.com.au/homicide-the-laws-of-australia/productdetail/112188

        “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
        Deuteronomy 32:35, Romans 12:19 , Hebrews 10:30,

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    • Monica :- I “believe” so.

      That is the reason I stopped using the words “BELIEF & BELIEVE”
      Without the use of those words it is very difficult to justify to do harm to others.
      A guy can justify bashing a girl with the “BELIEF she deserves it.
      And you yourself could kill .
      Fifty thousand years nothing has changed

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    • If everyone thought along those lines there would be no religions and NO WARS .
      If you had the choice of having no wars but also having no religions would you say yes.
      And before you jump to high I did not say loss the inner thought about your place and hopes.
      Just the end of RELIGIONS

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    • Strewth : –
      no killing of others is excusable “UNLESS” as an act of war.
      This should be added
      For we all must stand up for the “Wealthy & Powerful” in their endeavor to gain more or protect their wealth & power.
      Murder on mass for those already on top.
      Just requires the masses to put aside their morals and empathy.
      Just “”BELIEVE”” what they tell you .

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      • CB, I understand what you are saying. I was talking about what is legal, rather than what is moral. The law attempts both, but can lose the fight against manipulation by the “Wealthy & Powerful”.

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    • Strewth, I wouldn’t ‘like’ to shoot anyone or anything, including those who deserve to be shot, but if I had to in defence of my loved ones, I would…..and I know others; peace loving souls who do not have a violent bone in their bodies, who have stated that they would take up arms against ISIL rather than let them get a foothold in Australia, the country we love.

      And BTW, I think by now I ought to know the Law. And if I don’t I have I have siblings who are police officers. 😉

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      • Monica, I think I put the bit in about the law as a link to the biblical quotes, not applying it to anyone here as being ignorant of it.

        I can certainly understand that people WOULD like to rid the world of these people, but I’m sorry if I implied it of you, Monica. I trust our government would act on our behalf, involving our forces, if that threat arose.

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      • 12 years ago a dear friend of mine stumbled upon a “group of 20+ Islamic/Arab like people in army camouflage gear, camped at a site in the Blue Mountains, Sydney. They had 0.08m long machetes and were acting suspiciously. So my friend contacted the police, who fortunately took him seriously. 5 police cars 2 rescue vehicles and a PolAir helicopter arrived on the scene and around 15 police officers in flack jackets.

        Turns out that a couple of the men had links with groups that recruit Muslims to do military training overseas. The NSW Counter Terrorist Unit and ASIO were involved in the investigation.”

        We can all do our part to combat this perversion, Strewth.

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      • “Central to their world view is the belief that communities cannot live together with Muslims, and every day their antennae will be tuned towards finding supporting evidence. The pictures from Germany of people welcoming migrants will have been particularly troubling to them. Cohesion, tolerance – it is not what they want to see.”

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  6. “Einstein also said religion, arts and sciences were branches of the same tree”

    I was recently listening to some senior students discussing music and why we humans see it as so important. Why do we love it? Why is it so beautiful, mathematical? What is music to God?

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  7. For those who believe we should not go to war.
    If a person came into your house to kill all your family would you, A Let them or B kill them first?
    Wars often come down to this very pragmatic scenario.

    Dear Mr Terrorist, please can we talk about this?
    In Mali with the recent mass killings by muslim groups, they were in the middle of a cease fire.
    The terror groups used this time to plan the massive attack.

    It happens time and time again.

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    • Of course, because they want war, but they want to appear to be justified in responding.

      If they are attacked they then will gather support from those who, fairly or unfairly, blame the West for past actions.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Maybe this is why war will happen.
        Israel wants to survive. Islam wants to destroy it.

        Israeli Imam Supports ISIS, Calls Netanyahu “Jewish Dog”, MEMRI, July 2, 2015

        During a sermon on July 2 at the Al-Tawhid Mosque in Umm Al-Fahm, Israeli Imam Muhammad Abd Al-Ghani called Netanyahu “that Jewish dog” and criticized Hamas, saying that it had “struck an alliance” with the Jews, who, he said, were “behind every catastrophe afflicting our Islamic nation.” According to media reports, Abd Al-Ghani removed a sign bearing the ISIS symbol at the entrance to the mosque following repeated demands by the Israeli police. However, the symbol continues to appear on his Youtube account.

        – See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2015/07/israeli-imam-supports-isis-calls-netanyahu-jewish-dog.html/#sthash.N85PZ3hy.dpuf

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      • In July, Al-Faisal copied the offi­cial ISIS ver­sion of its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi’s biog­ra­phy in Eng­lish onto his web­site and pre­sented a lec­ture encour­ag­ing stu­dents to learn from and about Bagh­dadi and ISIS. Sim­i­larly, in a July lec­ture posted on his site, he stated, “There is no doubt that he (Bag­dadhi) is the legit­i­mate caliph and it is incum­bent upon you to give your be’ah (alle­giance),” later adding, “So take up arms, take up arms, O sol­diers of the Islamic State! And fight, fight!”

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      • Maybe this is why war will happen.
        Israel wants to survive. Islam wants to destroy it.

        What is the Palestinian Christians view of the war ?

        A Jew killing a Palestinian or Palestinian killing a Jew are symptoms of the problem. The root of the problem is the Israeli occupation of Gaza. As Christians we know there won’t be any peace in peoples’ lives without the Prince of Peace. But as long as this occupation continues, there will not really be a solution.

        http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/august-web-only/hamas-israel-conflict-gaza-christians.html

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      • See you quoted an Israeli Imam calling a leader of an occupying force “A Jewish Dog” and support ISIS.
        Disappointing lack of patience from a person who must be under a lot of stress.

        What do you think of this quote from an elected represented in the position to carry out his threats ?

        The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988.

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    • There will be war but:

      “It is absolutely necessary” to send armies to take ISIS territory, Dalil Boubakeur tells CNN’s Christiane Amanpour
      Boubakeur, chairman of the Great Mosque of Paris, says French Muslims mustn’t forget they are French.

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      • “Israeli Imam Supports ISIS, Calls Netanyahu “Jewish Dog”, MEMRI, July 2, 2015” – Alexei

        That Imam is from AQAP, which is considered by the U.S government to be the most dangerous al-Qaeda branch due to its emphasis on attacking the far enemy and its reputation for plotting attacks on overseas targets.

        The group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, Australia, Canada, Russia, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, the European Union and the United States.

        Do you really want to promote their propaganda?

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    • U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said he was “extremely encouraged” by pledges of military assistance against Islamic State militants by countries inside and outside the Middle East and that some nations had offered ground troops.

      Kerry has been touring the Middle East to try to secure backing for U.S. efforts to build a coalition to fight the Islamic State militants who have grabbed territory in Syria and Iraq.

      “Ultimately, to destroy ISIL, we do need to have a force, an anvil against which they will be pushed – ideally Sunni forces,”

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    • I think everyone here is outraged by the ISIS attacks. But will outright war stop them? Or galvanise support for them by disenfranchised Muslims?
      History would suggest the latter.
      One positive step is to follow the money trail. ISIS is well-funded..but by whom? Let’s stop the money flow.
      Let’s support the muslims who are equally outraged by ISIS. There are millions of refugees from Syria and Iraq running away from ISIS. We cannot abandon them because ISIS continue to prey on them as they run towards Europe. Acknowledging that the vetting process is imperfect does not mean we should abandon refugees.

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    • Bryan,
      I guess that PG is not the only individual on this List who studiously refuses to answer significant questions!

      Incidentally I hope there were a few of our regulars who watched the SBS show this evening about the beginnings of the Inquisition. Especially I would point out the terribly cruel genocide applied by the Roman Church against the peace-loving Cathar Gnostics of Southern France.,

      Cheers Rian.

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      • Starting in the 1990s and continuing to the present day, historians like R.I Moore have radically challenged the extent to which Catharism, as an institutionalized religion, actually existed.

        Building off the work of French historians such as Monique Zerner and Uwe Brunn, Moore’s The War on Heresy[ argues that Catharism was “contrived from the resources of [the] well-stocked imaginations’ of churchmen, with occasional reinforcement from miscellaneous and independent manifestations of local anticlericalism or apostolic enthusiasm.”

        In short, Moore claims that the men and women persecuted as Cathars were not the followers of a secret religion imported from the East, instead they were part of a broader spiritual revival taking place in the later twelfth and early thirteenth century. Moore’s work is indicative of a larger historiographical trend towards examination of how heresy was constructed by the Church

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      • Thanks for that bit of commentary Maurice, .

        Historians like Moore who you quote there are doing a creditable job in offering a clearer picture of the so-called heretics that disturbed the Catholic authorities so badly for much of the last 1700 years.

        It is true that the term ‘Cathar’ became something of a blanket term for the Albigensians of Southern France in the 13th century. And also of course that the greater part of our information about these cruelly conquered and deposed people has come from the very biased records of the Catholic Inquisition. It is worth going to the Internet and calling up details and criticisms of Moore’s work and some of the best modern research on them.

        A very interesting thesis these days, is that these ‘Cathars’ were not necessarily some sort of underground reject heretics, but rather were something like groups who perpetuated certain of the teachings and practices of early Christianity, which were outlawed from the time of Constantine on by the orthodox Catholic authorities.

        Moore and his contemporary experts are perhaps managing to demolish some of the myths imposed on the old heretics. You still read in the literature that Gnostics are essentially Dualists, who are convinced that the world about them is evil, etc. Much as the fact may be unwelcome, it is still true that in the early days of the Church, there were loads and loads of splinter groups and sects and churches that rose from Christianity and utilized its holy Scriptures in their own way, literally classing themselves as Christian. The sects of Valentinus, Marcion and Basilides, among others, were all very very big and influential. They were not hopeless little breakaways. Read Tertullian and others to demonstrate this.

        Just to try putting the record straight on some of this, let me say this. Persons classed as ‘Gnostics’ are essentially spiritual freethinkers. They are not so inclined to take the teachings and history in the Christian Bible as being literal and exclusive. They reject the authority of Popes and Priests, being convinced that one can come to one’s own experience and understanding of God via their own searching and spiritual practices because of their own inner divine nature.

        Gnosticism is and was something of a blanket term for these ideas, and the application of that term Gnostic to particular practitioners is a relatively modern practice. You simply cannot assume that a person classified as a Gnostic will hold any specific set of doctrines. It is probably more of just what they reject in the traditional Church that will define them.

        The term ‘Heretic’ will always mean just whatever the Christian Ecclesia in power chooses to say it means. Keep in mind that for the greater part of the last few centuries, ALL Protestant persons and groupings have been termed as Heretical by the Catholic Church. And heaven knows, our various Protestant communions in their turn have declared all sorts of folk and their teachings to be heretical. So the commentaries and blanket condemnations that friend Alexie chooses to toss around about Gnostics, are largely type cast and biased.

        Again thanks Maurice,
        Cheers, Rian.

        Like

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