Why are you here?

Essayist Jim Holt in his  book Why Does the World Exist? criss-crossed the planet talking to cosmologists, physicists, philosophers, eastern sages and theologians about reasons for our existence.
Holt described one meeting with a priest, a physicist and a Buddhist monk. The priest said the universe must be created by God, the physicist invoked quantum mechanics and the monk believed that the universe just always existed.
Holt said that for religious believers, there was no mystery to the existence of the universe. It exists because God made it.

‘But suppose you ask nonbelievers to explain why there is a world rather than nothing at all,” he wrote. “Chances are they will not give you a satisfactory answer.”
Hall asked what options we had for resolving the mystery of existence once we let go of the God hypothesis. Science, he said, might be expected to someday explain how the universe came about. By any attempted scientific explanation of why hits a brick wall.
“The problem with the science option would nseem to be this. The universe comprises everything that physically exists. A scientific explanation must involve some sort of physical cause.But any physical cause is by definition part of the universe to be explained..Thus any scientific explanation of the existence of the universe is doomed to be circular.”

Albert Einstein once observed that “there are two ways to live: one is as if nothing is a miracle; the other as if everything is.

Jean-Paul Sartre, not a believer in miracles, once said “I exist, that is ll, and I find it nauseating.” But Christian author A.W.Tozer countered that with the thought that if you think God away, man has no ground of existence.
If this existence is a cosmic fluke, then our being is an exercise in futility. It has no purpose.
There will come a time when no one will be alive to remember that we even existed. All that mankind thought and did will be for nothing.

The alternative view is that we are here to attain eternal union with our brothers and sisters, and with the Divine. We are here to love and to be loved. We are here to complete ourselves
Writer and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel said our obligation was to give meaning to life and in doing so to overcome the passive, indifferent life. “Life is a gift and meaning is its reward,” he said. “The meaning of life is to be found in every encounter. Every moment is a moment of grace.”
Humorist Garrison Keillor said we are all here to know and serve God. “It’s clear truth that, like the nose on your face, is near at hand and easily discernible but can make you dizzy if you try to focus on it hard.
But a little faith will see you through.”

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77 thoughts on “Why are you here?

  1. What a perfect example of men worshipping themselves.
    As for this :-
    “Chances are they will not give you a satisfactory answer.”
    How could any view that places men as irrelevance be satisfactory to those who worship themselves by proxy .
    The basis of how the universe works is called “ENTROPY”
    Everything that is the universe.
    Personally I have a hunch the universe is the dimensions and the super strings [e=mc2 matter &energy] within it are just the by-product of the existence of a void .
    Time to study the shell rather than what is in it .

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      • Bryan :-
        The sad little voice of despair
        Well I got off lightly !
        Back a few hundred years I would have been dispatched for offending those worshipping them self by proxy .
        As for my hunch about the universe the concept everything in the universe was just the waste by product of the dimensions existence that could explain the reason for ENTROPY and a VOID still existing .
        At this stage I think I have exceeded your thinking ability.

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      • Such arrogance and only based on thinking. Read about fast and slow thinking. You might be more humble in future.

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      • And the story keeps on changing .
        And people “”ASSUME””
        And all through time those “ASSUMPTIONS”
        are based on them being important .
        Having the belief one is important hinders the ability to contemplate that what is outside this closed universe.
        A vast array of spin some more absurd than the current religions and many more plausible.
        But all placing man as irrelevant.
        A situation totally unexceptionable to many.
        Proof men are worshipping themselves by proxy.

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      • Bryan
        Just imagine this universe was created by a massive machine that the product was a prefab wall filled with vast amounts of voids .
        “”Styrofoam””.
        And the time scale was a trillion trillion trillion trillion slower outside this void

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      • Alexie
        on September 6, 2015 at 17:05 said:
        What is the void?
        Are you really being serious in asking that or just joking or asking the real serious defining question.

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      • The nine or ten dimensions are the real issue not the super strings that are all that is in those dimensions.
        And the interaction that those dimensions are influenced by the mass of the super strings.
        Nothing is fixed all is in flux.
        So there is no part or item carrying more importance than any other .
        Yet religions function on places and times created by man .
        When the sun expands and blasts this planet to tiny groups of atoms and in a trillion years those atoms are themselves shredded by neutron stars or black holes there will be no difference between a bar of gold or a child’s soft toy.
        No sacred place or time or object.
        And entropy will consume all within this universe .
        Nothing can escape entropy.

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      • Entropy and causality used as a proof for God’s existence

        by Matt Slick

        The second law of thermodynamics states that the amount of energy in a system that is available to do work is decreasing. Entropy increases as available energy decreases. In other words, the purely natural tendency of things is to move toward chaos–not order, and available energy necessary for work is lost (mostly as heat) in this process. Eventually, the universe will run down, and all life and motion will cease because all the energy that exists will be, more or less, evenly distributed so that no work can be performed and no life can exist. This is the natural tendency of all things. Batteries run down, machines break, buildings crumble, roads decay, living things die, etc. Left to the natural state, all things would eventually cease to function.
        1.The universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down.”1.If the universe were infinitely old, it would have reached a state where all usable energy was gone.
        2.But, we are not in this state, therefore, the universe is not infinitely old and must have had a beginning.

        2.Because the universe had a beginning, it is not infinite in size.1.It would require an infinite amount of time to become infinite in size. Since the universe had a beginning, it has not had an infinite amount of time to expand, therefore, it is finite in size.

        3.All events have causes.1.There cannot be an infinite regress of events because that would mean the universe were infinitely old.1.We’ve already established that the universe cannot be infinitely old.
        2.If it were infinitely old, the universe would be in a state of unusable energy, which it is not.
        3.If it were infinitely old, the universe would be infinitely large, which it is not.

        4.Since the universe is finite and had a beginning and there cannot be an infinite number of regressions of causes to bring it into existence, there must be a single uncaused cause of the universe.1.A single uncaused cause of the universe must be greater in size and duration than the universe it has brought into existence.1.Otherwise, we have the uncaused cause bringing into existence something greater than–or equal to–itself.

        2.Any cause that is natural to the universe is part of the universe.1.An event that is part of the universe cannot cause itself to exist.
        2.Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause outside the universe.

        3.An uncaused cause cannot be a natural part of the universe, which is finite.1.An uncaused cause would be infinite in both space and time since it is greater than which it has caused to exist.

        4.An uncaused cause would be separate from the universe.1.Being separate from the universe, which was caused to be, it would not be subject to the laws of the universe since it existed independent of the universe and its laws.
        2.This would mean that entropy need not be required of the uncaused cause.

        5.This uncaused cause is supernatural.1.By supernatural, it is meant completely ‘other’ than the universe and is not the product of it.1.This uncaused cause must be incredibly powerful to bring the universe into existence.

        6.The Bible teaches that God is uncaused, is not part of the universe, created the universe, and is incredibly powerful.1.God’s existence (in Christianity) is not an event but a state.
        2.Psalm 90:2 says that God is God without a beginning.
        3.This means that God is uncaused.

        7.Therefore, the God of the Bible is the uncaused cause of the universe.
        https://carm.org/entropy-and-causality-used-proof-gods-existence

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      • The Koran teaches that God is uncaused, is not part of the universe, created the universe, and is incredibly powerful.

        God’s existence (in Islam) is not an event but a state.

        Sura 112 says that God is without a beginning.

        This means that God is uncaused.

        Therefore, the God of the Koran is the uncaused cause of the universe.

        When you read the same argument from the perspective of another religion, the unfounded assumption and non sequitur become very obvious.

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      • I always thought it was the FSM

        Although Stephen Hawking does have good things to say about the great god Bumba so maybe it was him 🙂

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      • With the Cosmic microwave background :-
        Precise measurements of the CMB are critical to cosmology, since any proposed model of the universe must explain this radiation. The CMB has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K.
        There can only be two situations to take such measurements of a event 13,700,000,000 years ago.
        Either this universe is open and what is past it,s boundary is ZERO for nothing has come in for the existence of this universe.
        How could you take a image of just 2.72548±0.00057 K unless what is beyond is ZERO K.
        And the other alternative is NOTHING can enter .
        But if nothing can enter how could even just a single super string leave for that would en-tale getting something from nothing.
        Summery
        What is out of this void is either zero or _________
        Now I am not foolish to make any claims as to what .
        But billions of people have decide what is outside this void and they are going to escape because they believe their important.

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      • Something from nothing! Yes, it would suggest that. Uranium is a good measurement and it ends up being lead! Entropy is 100% correct. Your “hunch” is obviously less than 100. Studying the shell is not important. Its exapanding out that is important from what we already know. Believing in God has more to it than your hunch. But just like Radon gas we may find God is the uranium, we are the radon and lead is the end but not final product in the universe.

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      • Most scientists would probably say that the concept of an afterlife is either nonsense, or at the very least unprovable. Yet one expert claims he has evidence to confirm an existence beyond the grave – and it lies in quantum physics.

        “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”
        ― Nikola Tesla

        Some science explores the non-physical aspects of reality – by its very nature it cannot accurately measure or collect data using the five physical senses. That is why quantum physics, which delves into non-physical nature , cannot produce consistent and duplicatable results and is sometimes called “the science of probabilities”.

        Scientists are beginning to recognize that what they have been defining as “cause” is simultaneously “effect”. The very act of using science to observe the “cause” of any observable outcome will have an impact of upon the result, or “effect” being studied!

        Professor Robert Lanza claims the theory of biocentrism teaches that death as we know it is an illusion created by our consciousness.

        http://collectivelyconscious.net/articles/quantum-physics-proves-that-there-is-an-afterlife-claims-scientist/

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      • Scientists are beginning to recognize that what they have been defining as “cause” is simultaneously “effect”. The very act of using science to observe the “cause” of any observable outcome will have an impact of upon the result, or “effect” being studied!
        Strewth
        Well is it great religions are not effected by those same issues.
        Cause and effect and “ASSUMPTIONS” all sitting atop man,s EGO

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  2. Friends of mine lost a son to cancer. At a memorial iI asked would they still have himknowing he would die later? Without hesitation they said yes. Why I asked? Because we love him. God is the same knowing the problems we would have He loved us but also gave the fix in Jesus for all problems.

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  3. Comparing science to religion in this regard is like comparing a chef to a pretentious hispster nimrod.

    Sure the chef can tell you HOW he cooked the meal, but only the pretentious hispster nimrod.
    can tell you the real meaning of the meal

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  4. bryanpattersonfaithworks
    on August 24, 2015 at 16:25 said:
    I think evil is a consequence of free will. God allows it (at the moment) but doesn’t create it. We do.
    Why are you here?

    I think evil is a consequence of free will.
    Well on that basic all the bacteria on the planet are the ultimate non sinners.
    Bryan I don,t think you carefully looked at the consequences of such a spin .

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      • Yet the bacteria and the human are essentially following the same process. It’s all about perception.

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      • Bryan – I think evil is a consequence of free will.
        That would mean Ants,Bees and Termites are guaranteed immortality.
        Being on mass and numbers and higher morality for their own kind they should be the chosen life .
        Those insects have got it down perfectly..

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  5. We are here to grow spiritually, which often means hard lessons. We are here to do the best we can, even if that isn’t great, and may better serve God’s plan in some after life.

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  6. Why are you here?
    Well Bryan and others if they dare !
    What animals are in your belief are on a list for gaining immortality ?
    [keep in mind that FUNGI are mainly animal]
    What level of sophistication in structure do you believe is required.
    Name a few animals that you believe should be just getting on the list.
    And name a few animals that your believe should just not get on the list.

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    • Why such questions? Are we supposed to be omniscient? I think not. One doesn’t have to understand, for instance, motor mechanics, to undertake a car trip.

      There is too much we don’t know, don’t pretend to know. But the little we do know is inspiring, and gives us faith.

      We may too have personal experience, of no account to others but convincing to us. The mechanics of it all don’t matter.

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      • Strewth -Why such questions?
        What !!
        I look at EVERYTHING as a QUESTION !!
        This blog of Bryan to me is just another avenue of questions .
        I am no were near smart but I am smart enough to not wish to not ask questions.
        And that avenue of questions just answered a question I had not even asked.
        That question :-
        Are there people who willingly chose to be blank on gaining knowledge.

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      • Hey Strewth,

        “There is too much we don’t know, don’t pretend to know”

        There is ton’s o stuff we pretend to know – it’s the basis of religion.

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      • Questions are not the issue, but ‘such’ questions, with a challenge which to my mind seems aggressive.

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      • So you’re requiring an opinion? Again, I wonder why. There was an Australian song about Middleton’s rouse-about, who hadn’t any opinions, hadn’t any ideas. He did rather well in life!

        Now I do have lots of ideas, even if I have few opinions. There is very very little I’m sure about, except that I have Someone watching over me.

        Disappointing for you, for which I’m sorry. But I can’t alter that.

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    • Note the opinion asked for has not been given.
      What,s the difficulty ?
      A century and half ago the answer would be given with a strong assertive opinion .
      What has silenced that chorus of certainty ?

      Those QUESTION marks keep multiplying

      YES ??

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      • Agh! How did I get my reply in the wrong place again!? Here it is again –

        So you’re requiring an opinion? Again, I wonder why. There was an Australian song about Middleton’s rouse-about, who hadn’t any opinions, hadn’t any ideas. He did rather well in life!

        Now I do have lots of ideas, even if I have few opinions. There is very very little I’m sure about, except that I have Someone watching over me.

        Disappointing for you, for which I’m sorry. But I can’t alter that.

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  7. I agree with ten dimensions. It could quite well be true God is one of them. Imagine a 3D object trying explain itself to a 2D universe.
    The “void” is an explain something we cannot yet understand. A void cannot itself be a void. It is a something even if its only the reflection of sometging greater

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  8. Universe expands into seemingly nothing. But there are many universes. Black holes, work holes, particles flicker on waves. Dark matter 95% and yet we know so little. To think there is no God takes the greatest faith.

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      • And Hi to Strewth,

        I said earlier that – There is ton’s o stuff we pretend to know – it’s the basis of religion.

        Notice Alexie gives us a great example.

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      • Perhaps Bubba I should have said ‘invisible’ rather than ‘nonphysical’, as finer and finer degrees of matter are being discovered. Invisible things like radio waves have long been known about – are they nonphysical? Can anyone yet tell if the magnetic field is physical or not? This I don’t know, I am no expert. Logic says these things exist, and that they didn’t appear by magic.

        Perhaps ethereal is a word that could be used.

        I find your questioning thoughtful, and am trying to be factual, rather than opinionated!

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    • This void could be the product of a machine.
      A machine making trillions of void for the purpose of blankets for pets.
      Man,s EGO has restricted the scale of the universe until less than a hundred years ago.
      The smaller the universe the easier to boost man,s EGO.
      Within the last hundred years KNOWLEDGE has arrived that the universe is vast in up scale and down scale.
      “”How wrong could man be””?
      “ONE HUNDRED PERCENT WRONG.
      You would think after being so wrong men would give up on judging the scale of what could be outside this VOID.
      But “”NO””

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      • Bubba Ray on September 11, 2015 at 19:05 said:
        And Hi to Strewth,
        I said earlier that – There is ton’s o stuff we pretend to know – it’s the basis of religion.
        Notice Alexie gives us a great example.

        Yes Bubba, I saw the earlier post, but didn’t realise you were expecting a response. I agree that much we think we know can have originated in pretense, and we convince ourselves. However some of us have had experiences, which can’t affect beliefs of others, but are sufficient for us. This doesn’t mean that no-one else can believe, for logic tells us there is a non-physical realm.

        As to “To think there is no God takes the greatest faith,” the only alternative when considering the latest scientific knowledge, IS to believe in magic. And as you rightly ask ‘Why does lacking a belief in magic take faith ?’

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      • Perhaps Bubba I should have said ‘invisible’ rather than ‘nonphysical’, as finer and finer degrees of matter are being discovered. Invisible things like radio waves have long been known about – are they nonphysical? Can anyone yet tell if the magnetic field is physical or not? This I don’t know, I am no expert. Logic says these things exist, and that they didn’t appear by magic. perhaps ethereal is a word that could be used.

        I find your questioning thoughtful, and am trying to be factual, rather than opinionated!

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      • Hi Strewth,

        If I may it’s not logic that tells us radio waves and magnetic fields exist we can detect and generate magnetic fields and radio waves.

        A child can build an electromagnet and observe magnetic fields in action.

        As you pointed out these things have “long been known about” rather thane being logically deduced.

        Are you extrapolating further from the known phenomena like magnetic fields into other areas of the ‘invisible’ ??

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    • Yes the universe is expanding.

      And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur’an, 51:47)

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      • You would think after being so wrong men would give up on judging the scale of what could be outside this VOID.
        But “”NO””
        Your reply is a accurate example of man,s EGO.

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      • Bubba, we can observe the results of magnetism, so I think it’s logical to say it exists. I don’t think anyone has yet clearly explained how or why it exists, it’s still something of a mystery after all this time.

        And yes, I think I am extrapolating into other invisible areas, to the horror of many who would keep such things as ‘sacred’.

        I am saying consciousness is not confined to corporeal bodies, to what we presently think of as physical bodies. I am saying prayer can be effective when it is heartfelt, because it then becomes telepathy.

        It’s not to me a rivalry between physical and spiritual beliefs, not just the old idea of matter as evil v. spirit as good. Instead, it is all one. Sacred, everything to be wondered at, in awe.

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      • Hey Strewth,

        Well I guess logic is one way of viewing it. At some stage after I type these words you might read them and logically deduce that I used a computer of some kind to put them up on the web.

        I on the other hand can directly observe the computer in question so I don’t really need logic to tell me I’m using a computer it’s just an observable phenomena.

        Even it I close my eyes I can still reach out and by touch “observe” that there is a computer here.

        As to extrapolation there’s a very old joke that goes like this:
        A Physicist, an astronomer and a mathematician are walking one day through
        the Scottish Highlands, when they chance to see a black sheep.

        “Ah!” says the astronomer, “that shows that all Scottish sheep are black.”

        “No, come on, you can’t say that from a single observation,” says the
        physicist, “all you can say is that black sheep are found in Scotland.”

        “No,” says the mathematician, “all you can say from this observation is that
        from the angle we are looking at it, at this point in time, this particular
        sheep, APPEARS to be black on at least one side.”

        From my perspective you seem to be telling me that all the sheep are black.

        “I am saying consciousness is not confined to corporeal bodies,”

        Can you demonstrate that – is there a “paper and iron filings” experiment that you can perform with consciousness ?

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      • First hint of ‘life after death’ in biggest ever scientific study
        Southampton University scientists have found evidence that awareness can continue for at least several minutes after clinical death which was previously thought impossible
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

        “Most studies look retrospectively, 10 or 20 years ago, but the researchers went out looking for examples and used a really large sample size, so this gives the work a lot of validity. “There is some very good evidence here that these experiences are actually happening after people have medically died. We just don’t know what is going on. We are still very much in the dark about what happens when you die and hopefully this study will help shine a scientific lens onto that.” (The Thelegraph, October 7 2014)
        https://bioethics.georgetown.edu/2015/07/consciousness-after-clinical-death-the-biggest-ever-scientific-study-published/

        The idea that consciousness can continue on after your heart stops beating and your brain stops functioning is a pretty wild one, and naturally courts a lot of scepticism. But the more scientists study the supposed phenomenon, the more certain trends are reinforced, giving us a glimpse into what actually might occur when we die
        . http://www.sciencealert.com/news/20140810-26301.html

        A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is clinically dead.
        The research, presented to scientists last week at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), resurrects the debate over whether there is life after death and whether there is such a thing as the human soul.
        http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98447&page=1

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      • Bubba says “From my perspective you seem to be telling me that all the sheep are black.”
        But surely “I am saying consciousness is not confined to corporeal bodies,” is more akin to ” I am saying black sheep are not confined to Scotland.”

        In any case it doesn’t seem to relate to any subject matter here, but I concede to being a bit slow sometimes. 🙂

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      • But Bubba, these are just ideas, and no-one should take them as necessary to believe. Also, correlation does not imply causation.

        All individuals have their own life lessons to learn, and should understand only as they are led – I believe.

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      • Hey Strewth,

        And yet nobody seems to have reported back as to what was on those pictures facing the ceiling. Funny how Dr Parnia never seems to mention that.

        Regards the sheep something might well be happening in the human brain at about the time of death. Indeed it might be representative of a feeling of peace or approaching a bright light or a whole range of options.

        To take something like that and say “a-ha consciousness is not confined to corporeal bodies,” is pretty much like the conclusion that all sheep in Scotland are black.

        No offence it’s much like the kind of “logic” that says the September 11 attacks on the world trade centre were an inside job by the US government or that aliens hiding on the dark side of the moon are mind controlling our politicians (just look at Obama !! ) or that operation Jade Helm is part of the US government’s plan to impose martial law, or that the Sandy Hook school massacre was a set up.

        It’s just wild and exaggerated extrapolation from the known to the unknown.

        “All individuals have their own life lessons to learn”

        I doubt it but some individuals do like a story that put things in some kind of context from themselves.

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      • Bubba, this is about scientific investigation, not about a scientific hypothesis, much less a scientific theory. You asked (I think) if their was any scientific study related to the matter, rather than if there was any proof.

        Also, an extrapolation is only a hypothesis, not a conclusion. Please don’t read more into it than that.

        I admit to still being unable to follow the relevance of the syllogism regarding Scottish sheep, where incorrect conclusions are formed.

        quote/ For instance, “All crows are black and the bird in my cage is black. So, the bird in my cage is a crow.” This is a false argument as it implies a conclusion “all blackbirds are crows” is incorrect. It is known as Syllogism Fallacy.

        Another example of Syllogism fallacy is “Some televisions are black and white and all penguins are black and white. Therefore, some televisions are penguins”. You can easily see that the conclusion is practically impossible and in fact has a comical outcome. /unquote

        So to see where I might be going wrong;-
        a) Scientists have found accurate memories of out of body states, are forming after clinical death, when no brain activity is detectable.
        b) ?
        c) ?

        No, I can’t logically fill in such a sequence. I don’t know how to explain that I held such a belief long before these scientific investigations. The only way for me to explain is to relate my own experiences, which can’t be expected to carry weight with anyone else.

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      • Hey Strewth,

        Your point A is massively overstated. Massively, massively, massively overstated.

        What scientists appear to have found is that for SOME people there may be SOME kind of brain activity for a small time after the heart stops beating.

        And even that is based on some pretty weak and speculative evidence. For example there’s no ECG measurement of brain activity. Nothing other than self reporting.

        How one earth are you able to conclusively say that the memories reported occurred after death ? How is it possible for a deceased person to say what time it is. It’s entirely possible that the memories reported occurred at or about the time of death / resuscitation. If you asked me when I began typing this response I couldn’t tell you within 10 minutes and I’ve been awake and aware the whole time.

        Even then according to your links only 40% of patients had any kind of after death experience.

        Dr Paria has also conducted a fairly simple experiment that has been running for years placing images on high shelves that can only be seen from above. Thus if a dead patient was having a genuine out of body experience you’d expect them to say “I could look down and see the medical staff working on me, and weirdly enough a picture of a horse right near the ceiling of the room”

        TO date is appears that approximately zero people have reported back seeing said pictures.

        The point about the sheep is this, the astronomer sees one black Scottish sheep and comes to the conclusion that all Scottish sheep are black. It’s a faulty generalisation based on an extremely small sample of the population as a whole.

        Your point A appears to be a similar generalisation. Some people report some kind of vision or memories of the events occurring at or about the time they are determined to be clinically dead (or revived from clinical death)

        Even where you’ve said “…….when no brain activity is detectable” isn’t backed up by any of the material you’ve linked. There is absolutely no report at all of measurement of brain activity. There’s mention of the heart having stopped beating but no mention of brain activity.

        So point A isn’t borne out by any of the material presented to date.

        Going on from point A you tell us that – “No, I can’t logically fill in such a sequence”

        That’s not really your problem – based on the material you’ve presented so far you can’t logically get to point A. You can’t make the starting point let alone filling in the sequence.

        Even then you don’t even come remotely close to “consciousness is not confined to corporeal bodies” As the links you’ve given us do seem to tell us that consciousness IS confined to corporeal bodies for a few minutes or so after death.

        A variant of the diving reflex could easily explain that. Heck this kid was revived 2 hours after drowning:
        http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/child-survived-almost-2-hours-cpr-after-falling-icy-stream-how

        “I don’t know how to explain that I held such a belief long before these scientific investigations.”

        If you’ll be kind enough to allow me to have a crack at an explanation I’ll give it a go. It’s a really, really nice belief to have and I’ll bet you’re a really, really nice fella. It’s not hard to see how a really nice fella develops a really nice belief and can sustain such a belief. It probably makes the world you live in a bit of a nicer place to be in.

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      • ‘Your point A is massively overstated?’ I don’t think so. It offers no proof. It allows that scientists have found is that for SOME people there may be SOME kind of brain activity for a small time after the heart stops beating and brain activity ceases

        ‘And even that is based on some pretty weak and speculative evidence. For example there’s no ECG measurement of brain activity. Nothing other than self reporting.’
        Right, but they were deemed clinically dead by doctors present – and ‘doctors determined their brains were not functioning.’ How else would a doctor determine a brain was not functioning? Logically ECG would be used? And any self reporting has been well verified. Including times the observations happened.

        ‘Even then according to your links only 40% of patients had any kind of after death experience.’
        So? I didn’t say everyone, and am really surprised the figure is as high as 40%

        I doubt the patients would be interested in pictures that had no bearing on the situation.

        ‘Your point A appears to be a similar generalisation.’ I’m sorry if that’s how it reads – it certainly wasn’t meant to generalise, nor to prove anything. I merely summarised the present scientific questioning.. I presume you knew of Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and also Dr. Raymond Moody, and their extensive investigations in the past, but the links I gave were of current work.

        ‘ based on the material you’ve presented so far you can’t logically get to point A. You can’t make the starting point let alone filling in the sequence.’ Exactly. It doesn’t apply.

        Bubba, it’s no use setting out to prove I have no proof. I’m not offering any, but when I say I believe consciousness is not confined to corporeal bodies, you asked “Can you demonstrate that – is there a “paper and iron filings” experiment that you can perform with consciousness ?” So I offered up-to-date experiments – not proof, not theory, not even a hypothesis.

        Thank you for your kind comments. I am always willing to consider I could be wrong.

        Like

      • Hey Strewth,

        A recap – here’s your point a) Scientists have found accurate memories of out of body states, are forming after clinical death, when no brain activity is detectable.

        That’s not what any of the information you’ve presented states. What you’ve presented is that the brain may still be operable for up to 3 or so minutes after the heart has stopped beating. Which is fair enough.

        “Logically ECG would be used?” Hmmm I think here that we are going beyond “all Scottish sheep are black” and moving onto “there must be black dragons in Scotland”

        How is it logical, why would medical staff trying to revive a patient who’s suffered cardiac arrest bother to set up equipment to measure brain activity? (my bad by the way I was thinking of EEG )

        I can see them starting CPR and running around to grab some defibrillators and the like, even grabbing a shot of adrenaline if it’s warranted. But taking time out to specifically measure brain activity while a patient is dying. I hope I never need emergency treatment at such as hospital.

        But based on the information you’ve presented all we can say is that there appears to be no specific measurement of brain activity. The only definitive diagnosis is the that the patient’s heart has stopped beating.

        In a similar manner the only thing we can say about the pictures facing the ceiling is that there are no reports of anybody having seen any.

        If you like we can fill in the gaps with any kind of explanation you could imagine, but we could also speculate that there are rainbow coloured sheep in Scotland too. I just don’t see how it advances our conversation at all.

        Here’s how I see our chat to date when i asked “Can you demonstrate that – is there a “paper and iron filings” experiment that you can perform with consciousness ?”

        The answer you really seem to have given to me is “no but I like to believe the idea anyway”

        Which is fair enough,

        Like

      • Bubba, I’m happy for you to believe there is no survival of consciousness after physical death. That is your belief, and you are entitled to it, and I expect you will hold on to it as long as you can. Thanks for taking an interest in the subject. 🙂

        Like

      • He rode his bike up the back of car parked under the shade of a tree.
        The principle told him to leave school and get a job because he could not see the blackboard.
        He could not judge the 6 volt headlights of a VW BEETLE that hit him crossing the road.
        Died on the spot
        At that stage he was on a blind pension with the condition of optic nerve atrophy

        Like

      • That principle directed myself and another to stop placing anti-Vietnam posters around the school .
        His reason he was good friends with a prominent company who,s owners supported the war .
        So much for developing free speech and for helping those who need it.
        A library was named after that mug.
        My brother was very concerned about going blind.
        We never had a fight or even a argument.

        Like

  9. In lighter vein, but who knows –

    What happens after this life? Consider this!

    A man and his dog were walking along a road.The man was enjoying the scenery, When it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead.He remembered dying and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years.
    He wondered where the road was leading them.After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road.
    It looked like fine marble.At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight.

    When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent Gate in the arch that looked like mother-of-pearl and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold.
    He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side.When he was close enough, he called out, “Excuse me, where are we?”
    “This is Heaven, sir,” the man answered.

    ”Wow! Would you happen to have some water?” The man asked.”Of course, sir. Come right in, and I’ll have Some ice water brought right up.”
    The man gestured, and the gate began to open. “Can ,” gesturing toward his dog, “come in, too?” the traveller asked?

    “I’m sorry, sir, but we don’t accept pets.”
    The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way He had been going with his dog.

    After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road leading through a Farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence.As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

    ”Excuse me!” he called to the man. “Do you have any water? “Yeah, sure, there’s a pump over there, Come on in.”
    “How about my friend here?” the traveller Gestured to the dog.
    “There should be a bowl by the pump,” said the man.They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it.

    The traveller filled the water bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog.When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.

    ”What do you call this place?” the traveller asked. “This is Heaven,” he answered.”Well, that’s confusing,” the traveller said.”The man down the road said that was Heaven, too.
    ‘”Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly Gates? Nope. That’s Hell””

    “Doesn’t it make you mad for them to use your name like that?”

    “No, we’re just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind.”

    Like

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