Amazing grace under fire

execution

In the still night air of Nusakambangan island, eight condemned prisoners joined together in a chorus of Amazing Grace just after midnight. They also sang Bless the Lord O My Soul before their song was cut off by the crack of gunfire.

As details began to emerge of the final minutes of the group, who included the Bali nine pair Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, it was revealed all eight prisoners rebuffed offers of blindfolds, opting instead to stare at their executioners while they broke out in song.

Pastor Karina de Vega, who witnessed the executions, said the voices of all eight members of the group cut through the air.

“They were praising their God,” Pastor de Vega said.

“It was breathtaking. This was the first time I witnessed someone so excited to meet their God.”

I wonder what effect this all had on the Indonesian soldiers aiming rifles at their hearts. That’s a story yet to unfold.

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99 thoughts on “Amazing grace under fire

  1. And on that day
    When my strength is failing
    The end draws near
    And my time has come
    Still my soul will
    Sing Your praise unending
    Ten thousand years
    And then forevermore
    Forevermore

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  2. It’s an old Roman soldiering concept: to die well.
    Early Christian martyrs took the theme to heart.
    Fox’s book of martyrs codified their legacy.
    Heaven keeps the books.
    Angels bear witness.
    It’s encouraging to one and all, that they kept the testimony of Jesus at the end.

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    • These were not martyrs. They did not die for their beliefs, but rather as a consequence of their crimes. It’s disturbing and insulting to Christians who are genuinely being persecuted for merely being Christian, whilst these two clowns are raised up as saints for suffering what they deserved.

      It’s insulting for Christians who war on drugs by helping drug users to overcome their evil habits, when such Christians as Chan and Sukumaran are held up as role models. One of the techniques that is effective in overcoming any addiction is to cut off access to the object of addiction. The Bible illustrates this in God’s commands beginning with “thou shalt not”.

      The Bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil (1 Thess. 5:22). What sort of message do you think this sends to wannabe drug smugglers everywhere? If you are Australian and are caught, you can expect the liberal (or should I say the libertine) section of Christian Church to coach you in what to do and say to provoke blind sympathy from other Christians.

      Thus the good work that Prison Ministries and other Christian organisations that minister to those in prisons will be made more difficult. Already such organisations are looked on with suspicious.

      Thanks but no thanks; we don’t need such role models.

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      • It is quite likely that Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran’s open declaration of their conversion to Christianity could have made the system work against them.
        They were more than mere criminals. Their turnaround to faith and their way of dying were inspirational.
        There is triumph in the midst of tragedy because of their amazing faith.

        Pastor Lee Carlson. Andrew Chan’s long time friend and mentor relayed this message. It said:

        ‘While Andrew was in the holding cell prior to execution, he shared the gospel with the only Indonesian among the nine to be executed. The man was a Muslim who subsequently had a vision of the Lord Jesus, (which is quite common among Muslims who give their life to Christ). Andrew also taught everyone a song, and as they were being led to the firing squad they were all singing. Andrew was heard encouraging them to sing louder. There were about fifteen of the guards who were visibly upset. Andrew went and embraced them and said he forgave them. Apparently, they were still singing when the shots rang out and silenced them’.

        Jesus has the victory.

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      • God’s way is not our way. Who knows what seeds of faith Andrew and others have planted. I know God is good, God is actively at work and God will have the victory! Peace

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      • Chan and Sukumaran are two shining examples of God’s grace and how God loves and forgives all, no matter what we have done in our past

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      • There is another one ready for execution, this time in China. Bryan, are you and those who constantly harped about how wrong it was to execute Andrew and Sukumaran on going to push just as hard to get this one’s execution stayed?

        Or is it that just because he is not Christian, you will all let the system work against him? I wonder if you guys would have campaigned for Andrew and Sukumaran if:
        – They hadn’t been Christian
        – The party in power was Labour/Greens.
        – The wasn’t so much hatred against Abbott
        – The country was China, not Indonesia

        Time will tell.

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      • Davinci/Hassan
        Don’t be a complete idiot.
        Capital punishment is wrong in all cases. And there are more awaiting execution around the world than just one in China. I would hope that the cases of Andrew and Myu will inspire us all to continue to fight against state sanctioned executions wherever and whenever.
        It has nothing to do with whatever how we feel about Tony Abbott or any of the other silly reasons you have listed.

        As Rob Buckingham, pastor of Bayside Church, said: “I am angry at the injustice and hypocrisy demonstrated by the Indonesian authorities, but I will channel by anger into energy to continue to advocate against the death penalty, to help those in prison to reform and reform others, to help people out of poverty that often leads them into crime in the first place, and to give pastoral care to those who are affected by drugs. I will continue to lead our church community at Bayside Church to show justice, mercy and love to a world so desperate for the genuine love of Jesus.”

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      • child torturer rapist killers?

        It’s not that God cannot forgive them but should a “justice” system suffer them to live?
        Biblical Jurisprudence, the complete law, seems to suggest “no”.

        The second death is a death sentence.

        Hell, seems to be a death sentence.

        Killers on parole have killed and will kill again? How do you intend to comfort their victims family? Simply forgive and forget and let them kill again on their next parole date? Seriously, Is that your answer to parole time killers?

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      • Seriously Phil, You just don’t listen.
        No-one is proclaiming that killers should be paroled. To suggest so is silly.
        And it has nothing to do with the barbarity of executions. There is no good reason for capital punishment.

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      • Really Bryan? Hassan and I are idiots? I’ll let the reference to Hassan pass, despite the fact that he hasn’t commented on this story and in spite of the fact that I’ve tried to explain the IT problem we have which necessitates Hassan using the same IP address as I.

        Explain what you and Rob Buckingham understand by the phrase “a busybody in other men’s matters” (which apostle Peter condemns). If the Indonesian government chooses to follow a different path to Australia, are you not guilty of being a busybody?

        Romans 13
        “1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.”

        What do you think Paul is talking about when he says that rulers do not bear the sword for no reason? What do you think Paul is talking about when he uses the word “sword”? What do you think Paul has in mind when he associates sword with punishment on the wrong doer? What do you think Paul is talking about when he calls the sword-wielding-wrong-punishing government as the servant of God, agent of wrath?

        Pastor Buckingham talks about justice, mercy and love in one sentence. Yet he gives the impression that mercy and love somehow override justice. Are mercy and love at the expense of justice? If so how do you explain Paul’s words in Romans 13:4 which associate God with justice?

        Come on Bryan! Did you not say that you started “Faithworks” with the Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other? How is it that now, you ignore the Bible in favour of those who “heap teachers to themselves according to their lusts”?

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      • it’s reductio Bryan,
        If the life and future management of the child rapist killer was in your hands and your hands alone how are you going to manage them?
        This is democracy, canvassing opinions and gaining consensus.
        What is your decision. If not execute what do you plan to do with the worst of murders [or the best of them]
        It not peripheral, irrelevant or tangential. If you don’t execute them how to you “keep” them in your own metaphorical back yard?.

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      • “Killers on parole have killed and will kill again?”

        So what was the exact number there again PG ?

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      • It will be interesting to see how much coverage the Chinese execution get. I will also be interested to see how hard Abbott pushes. Depends on the agenda.

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      • Mr Ray, according to the rules of negation it only takes ONE to make the case.
        In fact “one” makes a better case. One is personal and immediate and imperative.
        If your own dog gets run over you won’t much wonder what the annual road toll is for pets.

        Dom, I think you’ll be a lot more interested if Muslims can play the victim card in any Chinese executions. The battle for victim status is modus operandi for expansion and control isn’t it? I know, the koran tells me not to talk to you.

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      • Bryan, here are three premises.
        1. the ten commandments reads like a constitution document for every nation on earth/ institution on earth.
        2. thou shalt not kill has not been rescinded by God. Kill means murder not execute.
        3. man made in the image of God has to be taken seriously.
        5. to murder is likened unto defacing the image of God.
        6. man’s punishments are not ultimate
        7. the final settlement for the non repentant is to hand them over to satan for the destruction of their flesh in order that their souls be saved.
        8. Mosaic law suggests proportionate punishments
        9. and 10. Juries should perhaps be given license to meet out sentences and perhaps the family of the aggrieved should have a power of veto as the aggrieved party.

        11. some crimes really are too awful to discuss. As you know, newspapers won’t publish detailed finding of police or coroners because some things would make any sane man weep.
        12. trying to make one law fits all circumstances will never work, and is itself, unbiblical. Paul was a party to executions [the stoning of Stephen etc], and in the fullness of time, died as a martyr.
        13. Apart from the blood of Jesus, we are all, everyone of us, still under a death sentence – delayed not commuted.
        Only, Only by the blood of Jesus, is there forgiveness of sin.
        {I’m certain a very big book could be written on this topic; I hope these few notes get you to reconsider life and death and justice on earth}

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      • Perhaps Bubba Ray’s brother; I haven’t met either of them. Or is it Mr Dudley of the professional wrestling team.
        If he is wrestling with ideas, I think he missed the point Stalin made “One death is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic”.

        Every death at the hands of a released murderer is a tragedy. I’ll never consider a statistical argument over this issue.
        Masa Vukovic was a 17 yo girl walking thru a park. Her killer smiled at cameramen and gave them and all of us the middle finger? the Jury should get to hear of this man’s prior convictions.
        What do people want to do to this man.
        Certainly God have mercy on his soul.

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      • Every murder is a tragedy.

        The murders in Indonesia this week were a tragedy.

        All Christians are sinners, yet God sent his only Son to die on the cross for our sins. That is why God’s Mercy is so great; Jesus was willing to die for our us, those people are who so imperfect! So let us never forget their during our day to day lives!

        Psalms 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

        Luke 6:36 Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

        Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

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      • Reading these comments I would think Da Vinci (or his alter ego Hassan) has a problem understanding the heart of Christianity

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      • Hey PG,

        So you have no idea what those numbers are and you’re just pulling figures out of your hat.

        Fair enough.

        I hear that in this country most murders are committed by Christians.

        Recently a murder was committed by a real estate agent.

        We should immediately inter all Christians and real estate agents.

        Right ?

        Personal isn’t the same as important.
        Terry Pratchett

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      • Terry Pratchett, are you referring to Gerard Baden-Clay?
        He wasn’t on parole nor did he have a prior conviction for murder.

        I think you misunderstood me on several accounts. The number cannot be accurately known. It isn’t possible. Not all murder cases are solved. Any statistical science relating to it has to be incomplete. But the argument can be advanced without perfect knowledge of the numbers.

        Executing a killer means they won’t do it again because they have been prevented from ever getting an opportunity to.

        If life has sanctity and someone takes it what do they then forfeit? And to be consistent the argument carries into abortion and self harm. What is happening now neither honours the dead nor entirely protects the living from known threats.
        I aren’t advancing a solution based on numbers. Murder damages the murderer. It damages society. While God can forgive a murder, should society is not entirely the same argument?

        When a priest/ minister prayed over those about to die, it was simply, God have mercy on their Soul. The flesh was condemned for reasons that are actually fairly obvious. It was the do justice admonition for the sake of the living.

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      • Ahh so not only do you not know what the numbers are it doesn’t matter to you at all.

        “If life has sanctity and someone takes it what do they then forfeit? ”

        Depends on the circumstances. Some times we give medals.

        “I aren’t advancing a solution based on numbers.”

        Or common sense, or logic. Let’s be frank you aren’t advancing a solution at all.

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      • Common sense.
        If sense were common Cain wouldn’t have killed Abel.
        If sense were common people would throw themselves at Jesus’ feet today.
        If sense were common casinos wouldn’t make a dime.

        Logic. Now I know you’re having me on.

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      • Having difficulty there with some concepts hey PG. Like “numbers” and “logic”

        Why not just hit the keyboard with whatever pops into your little head and take it from there.

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      • Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled “conspiracy theorists” appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events.

        The most recent study was published on July 8th by psychologists Michael J. Wood and Karen M. Douglas of the University of Kent (UK). Entitled “What about Building 7? A social psychological study of online discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories,” …….
        unquote; if you re-read the above I’m replying to the resident Muslim’s accusation the death [sounds like manslaughter] would have been given a different media narrative in Tehran or Cairo or Libya.
        I’m actually agreeing with Dom on that point and neither of you can see how.

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      • Conspiracy Theorists siezed upon the publication of the paper “What about building 7?” A social psychological study of online discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories”, and claimed it showed that 9/11 conspiracy theorists were more “sane” than other people. However it does not say that at all, and the author of the study added a note on PubMed to clarify what the study actually means.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23847577

        Michael Wood wrote:
        As the first author of this study, I’d like to address a misleading headline that’s been making the rounds lately: the idea that this study says that people who believe 9/11 conspiracy theories are better-adjusted than those who do not. This grossly misinterprets our results: this study says nothing about mental health, and its results do not justify any conclusions about one group of people being more or less “sane” than another.

        The main basis for this misinterpretation appears to be the observed difference in hostility between conspiracist (pro-conspiracy-theory) and conventionalist (anti-conspiracy-theory) comments. On average, conventionalist comments tended to be slightly more hostile. In the paper, we interpret this difference as the product of a fairly specific social situation in which the two rival opinion-based groups use different strategies of social influence according to their relative popularity, rather than as an inherent psychological difference. In fact, previous research by Marina Abalakina-Paap and colleagues has shown that dispositional hostility is positively, not negatively, correlated with beliefs in conspiracy theories. However, that finding doesn’t necessarily justify the conclusion that conventionalists are better-adjusted than conspiracists. Either of these conclusions relies on the unstated premise that hostility is never good or justified, and that less hostility is always better. This is at least an arguable assumption, and there’s certainly no evidence for it here.

        In general, I would urge anyone who found this article via the “sanity” article to please think critically about headlines in the future. It is tempting to believe without question self-serving headlines that validate your prejudices and beliefs, but that’s precisely when critical thinking is most important.

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      • Trent,
        What would you have advocated if you would have been there when Adam sinned?
        Revocation of the death penalty, because eating the forbidden fruit is generally regarded trivial? Wouldn’t you have been against God who allowed death as a side effect of sin?

        What would you have advocated if you would have been there when Achan was executed? Stay of sentence because it was only a little bit of gold and clothes? Wouldn’t you have been against God who was behind the death sentence?

        What would you have advocated if you had known that Ananias and Sapphira were defrauding the church and lying? Stay of sentence? Wouldn’t you have been against the Holy Spirit who was behind their execution?

        What would you have advocated if you would have been before Pilate when Jesus was being tried? Stay of execution? Isn’t it hypocritical to say that state execution is wrong when:
        – You and I benefit from the execution of one Man (Jesus Christ)
        – Revelation 20 describes the mother of all holocausts, at the behest of the King of the Universe (this state execution will be used to eradicate evil once and for all)
        – Hebrews 11 mentions a lot of people who have died for their faith as an inspiration to us to look to Jesus. Ironically most of these died as a result of state executions.
        – You and Bryan benefit from the death of Andrew and Myu. Sermons on how their death is an inspiration, will be preached. Blogs will be written in their honour. Scholarships will be given in their honour.

        Friend, you might be forgiven by God for your sins, but you cannot escape the consequences of your sins.

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    • Da Vinci


      I wonder if you guys would have campaigned for Andrew and Sukumaran if:
      – They hadn’t been Christian
      – The party in power was Labour/Greens.
      – The wasn’t so much hatred against Abbott
      – The country was China, not Indonesia

      I don’t think that was very nice of you to imply that of Bryan or others here.

      I think these factor will affect the media and ultimately the government.

      Concerning hatred against Abbott. I dislike both parties but I have found new corp is behind the liberals not labour. Just need to look at the Courier mail front page at election time. They follow the preferences of their illustrious leader. Abbott will want to keep the support of News Corp so will follow their agenda. If they make a big deal of this then he will make a big deal of this.

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      • Reading these comments I would think Da Vinci (or his alter ego Hassan) has a problem understanding the heart of Christianity

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      • Dom I don’t think you should comment on drug trafficking given that your religion gave us the word “assassin” which is derived from an Arabic word which describes what an Islamic group of professional murderers used to eat before murdering people, and what they used to do under the influence of this drug.

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      • The history of the word assassin shows how legends can influence the development of words as powerfully as facts. European legends about a murderous, drug-crazed sect called the Assassins grew up around the Nizaris, a group of Ismaili Shi’ite Muslims that held strongholds in Iran and Syria from the 11th to the 13th century. The Nizaris opposed the rule of the Seljuk dynasty and the Abbasid caliphs, who were Sunni and regarded the Nizaris as unorthodox outcasts. Sunni accounts of the Nizaris accused them of all sorts of irreligious practices, and one term of abuse applied to the Nizaris was the Arabic word ḥaššāšīn, meaning “hashish users.” Reliable sources, however, offer no evidence of hashish use by Nizaris.

        http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assassin

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  3. When Stephen in the book of Acts was being stoned to death he saw his God, a man watching on the sidelines whose job it was to bring these Christians to their death later became known to us as Paul. Yes Brian, there is a story untold.

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    • The only untold story here is that of diversity in perversity.

      Stephen and Paul died for their faith (martyrdom).
      These two did not die for their faith. They died for their crimes (criminals).

      The Bible did not confuse the two. In fact 1 Peter 4:15-16 tells us that:

      “15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
      16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.”

      Let’s not confuse the fact that martyrdom and death for a crime one committed are two different things.

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      • It is quite likely that Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran’s open declaration of their conversion to Christianity could have made the system work against them.
        They were more than mere criminals. Their turnaround to faith and their way of dying were inspirational.
        There is triumph in the midst of tragedy because of their amazing faith.

        Pastor Lee Carlson. Andrew Chan’s long time friend and mentor relayed this message. It said:

        ‘While Andrew was in the holding cell prior to execution, he shared the gospel with the only Indonesian among the nine to be executed. The man was a Muslim who subsequently had a vision of the Lord Jesus, (which is quite common among Muslims who give their life to Christ). Andrew also taught everyone a song, and as they were being led to the firing squad they were all singing. Andrew was heard encouraging them to sing louder. There were about fifteen of the guards who were visibly upset. Andrew went and embraced them and said he forgave them. Apparently, they were still singing when the shots rang out and silenced them’.

        Jesus has the victory.

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      • Yes these two men died for their crimes but they did die as christians, praising God, singing to God looking directly at those who shot them. In God’s eyes they died as Christian, forgiven for their sins, not as convicts. God’s judgements are different than man’s, make no mistake about that. But if you are not a believer you may not be able to understand that. Remember Paul was forgiven for his sins of being responsible for killing Christians forgiven by God. The most important thing here is not what you or I believe but what those men knew when they died and by all accounts they not only accepted that they were being shot for their crimes but they also knew they were forgiven by their God.

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      • Sammy,
        My comments were, why call these two drug runners martyrs, which they are not?

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    • Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”* says the Lord.(NKJV)

      I am thankful for this. Better than Davinci being in charge on judgement day.

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      • Agreed! Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran do not need davinci’s approval, thank God! Their seed has indeed fallen to the ground and bears much fruit. Their witness cannot be extinguished by the likes of davinci. No, “A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden”.

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      • Sorry Strewth but once again you have quoted Scripture wrongly.

        If you read Romans 13:4 you will realise that the wrath that God talks about, can be brought about by God using the governments as His agents of wrath. In this light, it is not our right to avenge ourselves but leave this work to God and the governments He appointed to be carried out.

        Which goes against the grain of those who vigorously spent their energies fighting the Indonesian government, but have no answer to the question of what do you do with people that deliberately ignore warnings (God and the Government) not to do a certain thing.

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      • Since we’re talking Romans

        Romans 3:10
        As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

        AND

        There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

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      • Rethinking Capital Punishment

        The year was 1573, and 19-year-old Frantz Schmidt was beheading stray dogs in his back yard. He was not a troubled teenager in need of psychological attention. Frantz was practicing for his life’s calling.

        Unlike teens today, Frantz didn’t have to decide what he wanted to be when he grew up. Male teens followed in their fathers’ footsteps. For Frantz, that meant becoming an executioner. It also meant having to live with enormous social stigma.

        Despite the shame, Frantz, a Lutheran, believed his executioner’s role was divinely sanctioned. Martin Luther wrote that “the hand that wields the sword and strangles is … no longer man’s hand but God’s.” Executioners, he believed, are “very useful and even merciful,” since they stop villains and deter crime. Historian Joel Harrington ( The Faithful Executioner , Macmillan, 2013) called Luther’s comment “a celebrity endorsement for the profession.” If there is a lack of hangmen and you are qualified, Luther urged, apply for the job.

        Luther believed that civic order is divinely ordained. The cities of Frantz’s native Bavaria had been plagued by bandits, feuds between noble houses, and roving knights who supported themselves by pillaging. Bavaria needed a justice system to curb such violence and discourage vengeance and vendettas.

        Nevertheless, Luther’s endorsement was sharply at odds with the teachings of the early church Fathers. They didn’t oppose the state’s use of capital punishment. They didn’t even address that question, since Christianity was still a countercultural minority with an ethic for “resident aliens.”

        But as Ron Sider noted in The Early Church on Killing (Baker Academic, 2012), those Fathers who discussed capital punishment found it unthinkable that a follower of Christ could take a life, even as part of a judicial sentence. Lactantius said that a Christian should not even accuse someone of a capital crime, “because it makes no difference whether you put someone to death by word or by sword since it is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited.” Origen, recognizing that capital punishment had a place under the Old Covenant, drew a stark contrast between the law of Moses and the law of Christ. Christians, he said, cannot “condemn [someone] to be burned or stoned.” Tertullian asked whether a Christian could be a civil magistrate and concluded that believers must avoid “sitting in judgment on someone’s life.”

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      • —2—

        Like Origen, Christians today can view the Christian ethic as distinct from Jewish law, radically altered by Jesus. Or, like Luther and Calvin, they can formulate a Christian ethic in conscious continuity with the Torah.

        One writer who has followed the path of continuity is World magazine editor Marvin Olasky who argues that following the Bible’s teaching would greatly reduce the number of executions. He points out that the standards of evidence required in the Law of Moses demanded two eyewitnesses who were so sure of what they saw that they would stake their own lives on it. Olasky also argues that the death penalty for murder in the Hebrew Scriptures is a maximum—not a mandatory—sentence. That leaves room to adjust the punishment to fit the crime, the criminal, and mitigating factors.

        Because death-penalty cases are prosecuted and then appealed over many years at great expense, and because those sentenced to life in prison without parole overwhelmingly told him their fate was worse than death, Olasky commends life imprisonment without parole for capital crimes—a practical solution that is not far from contemporary Catholic teaching. The 1997 revision of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that where “non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.” Necessary executions, it says, “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

        Olasky rightly expresses concern about Jews and Christians who reject capital punishment simply because they find it barbaric, but he does not ask whether this institution, like slavery, fails when tested by Jesus’ own teaching. Though it took many centuries for the Christian church to come around on slavery, the patristic writers were already pointing a new direction on the death penalty. It is time for us to take another look at what Jesus and those earliest Christian writers had to say about the value of human life, no matter how sinful that life may have been.

        David Neff/ MARCH 14, 2014—-Christianity Today

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    • He was a drug addict who’d had cervical spine surgery a week before hand and should have been on bed rest recovery in at least a neck support soft collar. The entire story, along with paid actor protestor provocateurs and police on ‘stand down’ was a confected stunt. Prior to the US going into total economic melt down it seems steps are being initiated for martial law from coast to coast. There is nothing slightly honest about Baltimore or Ukraine or Syria reporting. 1984 is the script they read from.

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      • So were you there in Baltimore Phil?
        Or are you just parroting the racist propaganda from the little websites you frequent?
        There is NOT anything slightly honest about you. Just bluster and misinformation.
        The script you read from? Mein Kamp perhaps.
        Your god is too small.

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      • thanks Bryan, the leadership of the Bloods and Crips are purportedly on record saying these people were not locals/ out of towners
        I appreciate your candor. The days you can explain scientifically what hit the pentagon and why WTC7 collapsed at freefall I’ll accept your apology.
        I not partial to the racist comment because under Noah we are all cousins. Race doesn’t exist. My pass-over meal this year was at a Chinese Church in Templestowe and included a sweat Chinese Anglican minister at our table telling me of her discomfort with Islamic separatism at a campus she ministers in professionally. If a diminutive gentle Chinese woman is saying these things unsolicited by me I know it isn’t racism.
        pilotsfor911truth.org
        and yes, I’ve earned a commercial pilot’s license and had restless nights trying to unbelieve what happened. I can’t.

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      • Ah so the conspiracy theorist emerges.
        You think the WTC tragedy was an inside job.
        And the moon landing was a fake?
        And perhaps JFK was killed by Muslims?
        What else goes on in your little mind Phil?

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      • For those who don’t know what Phil is on about.

        Six Baltimore police officers have been charged over the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray, whose spine was snapped while in police custody, in a surprise announcement after days of riots and protests in the US city.

        State prosecutor Marilyn Mosby said Gray’s death is being treated as a homicide, and set out charges against police officers ranging from second-degree murder and manslaughter to misconduct.

        Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr, Officer Edward M. Nero, Officer Garrett E. Miller, Officer William G. Porter, Lieutenant Brian W. Rice and Sergeant Alicia D. White have been charged over Gray’s death.

        Baltimore’s chief prosecutor charged one police officer with murder on May 1, 2015 and five others with lesser crimes.

        Baltimore mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said five of the six had been taken into custody.

        “The findings of our comprehensive, thorough and independent investigation, coupled with the medical examiners determination that Mr Gray’s death was a homicide which we received today, has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges,” Ms Mosby said.

        Ms Mosby said Gray, who died a week after his April 12 arrest, suffered fatal spinal injuries “as a result of being handcuffed, shackled by his feet and unrestrained” inside the moving police van.

        She said officers failed to provide medical attention to Gray even though he had asked for it on at least two occasions.

        In a dramatic news conference, Ms Mosby said the Maryland chief medical examiner ruled Gray’s death a homicide.

        Ms Mosby also said officers had “illegally arrested” Gray as “no crime had been committed”.

        In addition to murder and manslaughter, charges include assault, misconduct and false imprisonment.

        Like

      • Over the last few years the city of Baltimore has paid out over $5.7 million in police brutality claims. That’s a lot of money for stunts.

        Like

      • Do you remember Mr Ian Ward?

        To this day I’m amazed no-one was charged with manslaughter over his death.
        Placed in a metal cage with the temperature rising to 50 degrees celcius and driven 352 km arriving dead and with third degree burns on his abdomen.

        The company still operates and if you are a non-urgent patient you might get invited into one of their ambulances. Does that surprise you?

        Ian Ward
        Aurelie Chatelain
        Masa Vukovic

        None of them should have been news. It’s what we do with now that counts.

        Like

      • In memory of Ian Ward .
        If the living won’t speak for the dead, then who?

        Like

      • Bryan.
        What does satan’s look like?

        http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/01/source-baltimore-police-officers-want-to-oust-the-mayor-video/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

        Why is Posse Comitatus being circumvented by a national guard/ quasi army elbowing local police out of the way…..

        Someone has an agenda, or knows of a coming breakdown in governmental structure from un reported circumstances. This isn’t even a theory. It is a pattern of behaviour.

        …….A 21 year beat police officer makes observations that confirm not incompetence but an obfuscated cause.

        Like

      • Baltimore’s mayor has lifted a curfew that was imposed across the east coast US city following widespread riots, as thousands of National Guard troops began to pull out.

        Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake faced growing calls for the curfew to be scrapped, particularly from store and restaurant owners who said the 10pm to 5am nightly restriction was wrecking business.

        “My goal has always been to not have the curfew in place a single day longer than was necessary,” Rawlings-Blake wrote on Twitter. “I believe we have reached that point today.”

        Hundreds of people meanwhile rallied again at City Hall plaza, summoned by local religious leaders.

        Baltimore took the unusual step of a citywide curfew after rioters torched cars, pelted police with stones and ransacked stores on April 27.

        The riots stemmed from protests over the death of Freddie Gray, 25, who suffered a serious spinal injury while in the back of a police van on April 12.

        Like

      • Conspiracy Theorists was made into a derogatory term popularized by the CIA to block questions around the assassination of JFK. .

        You think the WTC tragedy was an inside job.

        Three building fell. Only two planes. No credible explanation. Pentagon hit by something without wings. No CTV camera available though Pentagon covered with CTV cameras.

        And the moon landing was a fake?

        Not something I am interested in.

        And perhaps JFK was killed by Muslims?

        This is the speech that is believed to have led to his death.

        Like

      • It’s ironic Dom, that we agree more about who satan is than the birth, crucifixion death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ [Word of God, Creator of Heavens and Earth]

        The faux indignant race baiters are exploiting any black/coloured-white division furiously on the road to the next totalitarian holocausts. That’s the meta narrative.

        synagogue of satan will burn down houses and nations they can’t own/ control/ exploit.

        Jesus said, His Elect Bride, would ‘nearly’ be deceived at the pall being drawn over humanity. “if it were possible” is the exact quote. The banking-military cabal isn’t just about politics, finance and control; it’s darker than that, it’s wanting the very souls of humans and mainly succeeding.

        Like

      • I don’t think we totally agree. Trace back who owns the central bank, movie studios and media and you start to see who is pulling the strings.

        Like

      • Check which countries have recently adopted the central bank and what preceded their adoption of the central bank. What countries are left to adopt the central bank.

        Like

  4. Dom, believes the bible has many mistakes [all of the apostle Paul’s commission for example] that Muhammad corrected in some way. So again, which statements of Jesus, I ask you to name Bryan, do you believe Muhammad improved on?
    It’s your life, what have you actually signed up to?

    Like

    • So again, which statements of Jesus, I ask you to name Bryan, do you believe Muhammad improved on?

      None.

      It’s your life, what have you actually signed up to?

      I “signed up” (I’d prefer to say committed) to being a Christian

      Like

    • Back to the nonsense I guess Bryan. Seems to have you in his sights as well now. I think he was born 1000 years too late.

      Like

  5. There are evangelicals who are dyed in the wool, one eyed flag waving supporters of Israel who would volunteer for the IDF.

    Though you personally irrevocably disregard much of the bible as not of God’s authorship the Revelation of John the Apostle contains the words – “those who say they are jews but are not”. Apostle Paul, says quite cryptically, “all Israel shall be saved” but also, “not all Israel is Israel”.

    I don’t believe there is a man on earth who can unscramble that omelette. I believe Israel will come to Yeshua/ receive Him as Son of God – but that’s not to say I could tell you who the true Israelis are.

    the cabal of satanists could have any number of nominal affiliations; flags of convenience, fly as commonly as false flags of everyone-else’s inconvenience.

    As I say it is ironic we share the exact same perspective on some of these secret wars, and perfectly different histories of Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, god’s resurrected sign of atonement for sin.

    Like

    • In the same chapter it is stated that God hopes to “save some of them. Jesus told many Jews, “If you do not believe I am He [the Messiah], you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). I don’t see many believing that. I believe that. Do you ?

      I never got an answer to the question Mr Inconsistant. If you do not want a mosque in your street because it blasphemes the Holy Spirit then why would you not mind a synagogue in your street that refers to Mary, the greatest women in history, as a fornicator and refers to Jesus pbuh not too highly as well ?

      Like

      • Look up Jews for Jesus Dom.
        I personally have met a brilliant Jewish Messianic believer by the name of Jacob Prasch; though so as not to confuse people he simply calls himself Christian – that’s his choice.
        There is also a world of difference between strict orthodox rabbinical / talmudic Jews and reformed or liberal Jews. There is also a world of difference between these and the very soft gently Karaite folks.
        As to your quoting John 8:24 – what gives that sentence force and effect is the blood shed at the cross of Calvary and Mary’s attestation and witness of the Resurrection. Your tort on salvation is obfuscation.
        Ps. If the Prophet Muhammad were alive today and I was mocking him, he’d kill me wouldn’t he? Isn’t that who Muhammad is? If He were in a place where Islam had the numbers/ upper hand/ house of peace, wouldn’t he kill someone like me mocking his “prophesy”?

        Like

      • Bryan, thanks for those kind word of apologetic – expansion.
        Jesus was at one time accused of paranoia – yet only a little while later a real plot to kill him was hatched and executed.
        How and when and why “”Jews have been blinded for a season” is a massive topic. But the point is the basis of the Jewish faith ethnicity and modern religion is the Tanakh..
        One can call the divergence of the Rabbinical teachings from the tanakh non canonical, and largely a result of the destruction or the temple, its records and the diaspora
        Large portions of the Koran are neither in agreement with themes or details of the Tanakh nor Brit Chadashah. To which Dom will simply say, they are wrong and Muhammad is right.

        The Tanakh and Brit Chadashah can be perfectly harmonized. A Koran cannot be harmonized with the Tanakh or Brit Chadashah. This is Christianity 101, though obviously rabbinical Judaism says the Messiah hasn’t come yet.

        Jesus is the prophet Moses promised. God said, this is my Son Listen to Him.

        Dom says, No God didn’t say that.
        270 million dead?, and two more in Texas today.

        Trivialize this as much as the ecumenical movement might want to it is the basis of ongoing current war and persecution. Common ground is a stepping stone to the next war. Always has been.

        On Sunday I sat through a Uniting Church service they called an “ecumenical service”. In reality it was a simple Christian Communion Service. Someone is not being entirely honest with themselves calling what was said and done – “ecumenical”. War is coming and here already. I says these things so as not to wall paper over the extremely important things Jesus said and did that the Koran says He didn’t.

        Like

      • Jesus wasn’t paranoid Phil.

        What the Bible says about paranoia
        2 Timothy 1:7
        For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
        1 John 4:18
        There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

        It doesn’t make any sense for you to say, “I have faith that God has a plan….” then to go out and criticize, or be paranoid of, damn near everything

        Like

      • You didn’t answer my question PG. You just spoke of a people who do not believe in Jesus pbuh as the messiah then created a diversion. The reason given by you is blasphemy.

        Like

      • I would add a second question. Is Bryan more deserving of your respect since he believes in Jesus pbuh actually being God that the Karaite ?

        Like

  6. Dom, Bryan is accepting responsibility for all replies to all questions. Please direct all questions to him.
    I suspect a rapture this year so the dialogue has an anticipated end point. cheers.

    Like

      • Yes, I’d rather have a synagogue in my street > brothel > mosque.

        Question answered.

        Now your turn.

        {{It has been something of a revelation, this page Bryan. What do Davinci and Dom really have in common? Neither seem to grasp the fundamental bit of Christianity that Christians didn’t “earn” their forgiveness and God’s grace isn’t a prize for clean living.

        this page is called Amazing Grace.
        Andrew Chan didn’t go out believing that he’d earned a place in Heaven. He went out knowing Jesus had prepared it inspite of his sins, not because he’d improved himself and started to live a clean life.

        Dom, wants me to think that a Mosque is “morally better” than a whore house.
        Yet I know that’s not how this world works.

        Christians are better off not better than. They are forgiven their lives rather than awarded recognition for improved lives. This difference is day and night.

        If this is my card house, I’ll sign every card. If this isn’t the Rock of Salvation – Jesus is the promised, only begotten Son of God – then reword it in your own way. You seem to randomly drop posts from this page arbitrarily}}

        Taqiyya Dominique, can you say with sentences in the Gospel of Jesus Christ didn’t happen? Be brave, young one, show yourself.

        Like

    • Your mask is lifting PG. Maybe even you are now starting to realise that you are using Christianity to justify your bigotry. Since Bryan, is not attacking what you hate. You have rolled him up into it all as well. Like I said you would have been happier born 1000 years ago.

      Like

      • Quote:
        Let’s stop here and examine this paragraph. Muhammad ordered that a man who apostasized, and his two slave girls, be killed. Khatal was ordered to be killed not because he killed his male slave, a Muslim, but because he apostasized. Islamic law does not allow a Muslim man to be put to death for killing a slave. Muhammad also ordered two slave girls to be killed for singing satirical songs about him. Remember, they sung these songs about Muhammad years earlier. Now it was Muhammad’s payback time. Look, these slave girls were not threats to Islam, or to the new Islamic state. They were only slave girls. They were ordered to be executed only because they sang a silly song about Muhammad. More on them in a few paragraphs.
        unquote:
        I suspect if you had those powers you’d kill me Dom.
        You are a very proud muslim man and surely you want to defend your prophet’s honour. Surely you are man enough to defend your prophet.
        I reject the prophesies of Muhammad.
        Lots of love in Jesus Christ.

        If this isn’t important Bryan, if this isn’t the truth. Good “luck”.

        Like

      • You said the reason you preferred a gay brothel in your street over a mosque is mosque’s blaspheme the Holy Spirit. When asked what about Synagogues, you went on the usual joy ride that you go on around the truth. Bryan called you out so you are now dragging Bryan into it. Now you are saying I would kill you if I had the chance.

        We gave you a little pushed on this, you started backtracking playing up to the crowd by going through all the stereotypes. You turned plain ugly. We’ll leave you to your rapture. Don’t be surprised if you are left behind.

        Like

      • LOL
        a “gay brothel”?
        find the quote. Quote me accurately or not at all.

        I agree with you, allah didn’t raise Jesus from the Dead, God did.

        If I were left behind at least there’d be plenty of muslims to witness to about what just happened.

        It’s not enough to honour Jesus, I just looked up an old quote of yours. the Jehovah’s Witnesses honour Jesus – while rejecting who He is. He is God, manifest in flesh, the fullness of the God-head dwells in Him bodily – see Him and you have seen God the Father. Before Creation He was and is. He = the Great I AM, as He said, before Abraham was, I AM. As Melchizadek, without beginning of days or end of days.

        I asked you very directly to name things in the Gospels Jesus didn’t say or do that are recorded there. You ran away.

        Sure I’d rather a brothel in this street than a mosque. Drug addicts, prostitutes, prisoners oft understand they are sinners fallen short of the glory of God and are looking for a way out of the prison, their lifestyle, their addictions
        Muslims on the other hand are proud of Muhammad.
        Case closed.

        A lot of the do gooders/ utopians think the above is trivial. I don’t think God considers a multiculturalist’s wall papering the differences between Christianity and Islam as unimportant,
        the better the fences, the fewer the fatalities.

        Like


      • Thu 22 Sep 11 (11:28pm)
        I put it that – going to a brothel or gay bath house might involve a sin against one’s own body but it doesn’t involve a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I’d rather a whore house in my street than a mosque.

        Your house of cards is starting to fall down.

        Like

      • ie. You were wrong and won’t apologize.
        either intellectually lazy or deliberately disingenuous.

        Run away again

        There is that honest question above you won’t put an answer to. Mr Taqiyya Man.

        Like

      • Yes yes My Gay Bath House. I am dishonest because you say so. So are you going to answer the question PG. If you will not have a mosque in your street because it blasphemes the Holy Spirit what about a Synagogue in your street ?

        Like

      • Well let me reiterate:
        prefer Synagogue to brothel to mosque.
        Is that plain enough Bryan.
        What is your agenda in all this Bryan?

        Like

      • sorry, my mistake, i got the thread wrong and posted above what should have been right here, right now. The flow is very slightly interrupted.

        Like

      • So now you decided you are ok with the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit PG because by your standard both would blaspheme the Holy Spirit ?

        That is the thing about bigotry PG. You get caught out in the end. You have shown your colours, I am not interested in anything else you have to say.

        Like

      • Well one of them is this Bryan: Muhammad was murder that was never prosecuted for his war crimes.
        A spirited defense of bits of the gospel that get routinely by passed.

        Here Dom is doing a “not listening”. Do we really want to hand the public funding of schools to ‘teachers’ the likes of him. It’s happening.

        Mind you I genuinely believe the whole earth is about to be shaken like its the end.

        Dear Dom, who I love in Christ,
        when Jews pick up the Torah/ Tanakh – the prophets – Joel for example and read of the Ruach Ha Kodesh – it is exactly the same spirit Jesus promised to send and it is exactly the same Holy Spirit I would hope that you shall receive into your heart.

        Yes, I think you have been following a greatly deceived murder. I hope you get that – I wish you well

        Like

      • Phil, I don’t think you are going to persuade Dom – or anyone for that matter – with insults.
        And that passive aggressive thing – you’ve gotta do something about that mate.

        Like

  7. According to Daniel Dennett, this is how to compose a successful critical commentary:

    “Let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent.

    You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”

    You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).

    You should mention anything you have learned from your target.

    Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.”

    Too difficult for me, though. 🙂

    Like

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